[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Tom Houlihan

I understand organizations like the SS, but the Reichsbahn? So, is the DRK responsible, too? They healed men so they could go back and kill. How about the Electric and Water companies? They kept the lights on the the Kanzlei so that Hitler and his cronies could plan the war. Maybe if the Reichs Sewage Dienst had let things back up in Berlin, Hitler would have had other things on his mind.

Can't forget the weather service! They aided planning, too. Oh, and the lumber mills. If they hadn't sold material to Eicke, the camps wouldn't have been built.

As I posted elsewhere tonight, the people of Germany need to tell the rest of the world to ferk orf. It happened. We all know it happened. But none of the instigators are around anymore. All that are left are those who at the time were to young to have been able to comprehend, let alone influence what was going on around them.

The people living in Germany today for the most part weren't even born! They bear no responsibility! That's like me taking responsibility for the Slave Trade, for Heaven's sake!

Deutschland, stand up, and ignore everyone else. Do what you have to do to move yourselves ahead. Stop falling for this bullsh*t everyone else is handing you. It's an international guilt trip, and you're allowing it to continue!

Wow, Tom, a very powerful and enlightened post and as a German born American, I thank you. I do think, however, that your take on contemporary Germans "allowing" the international guilt trip to continue is a bit off mark.

For the most part, we have very little choice.

Whatever pride we may feel for those who in that time and place fought, sacrificed and struggled against such odds, has to be tempered by the fact that their efforts were linked to one of the most evil regimes in history.

The fact that many fought hard and with honor for their people, their country and the kameraden beside them has been for decades rendered irrelevant by the court of world opinion.

For this reason the swastika, I fear, is a cross we of German blood will have to bear for generations yet to come. Guilty by association is still, in the eye of the simple mind, guilt just the same.

I know this to be true because I have seen it.

My father survived things that should have killed him five times over. He came to this country for a fresh start. He worked hard and became a citizen. A far better citizen, in my opinion, than many born here that I see roaming the streets today. Yet he was still snickered at behind his back by those who believed "Hogan's Hero's" was a documentary and on at least one occasion I can remember him being called a nazi by a "neighbor".
When I tried to defend him, my father brought me into the house and said, "With this trouble, better not we make things worse."

As a youngster I had more than my share of fights after making the mistake of speaking candidly about my family background. And when as kids we played war, guess who was always one of the "bad guys".

When my daughter was in junior high she came home one afternoon with a suspension notice for using foul language with a teacher. When my wife and I demanded to know why she broke into tears.
She said as part of a class project on World War II those who had family who served in the war stood up and gave a brief oratory on who and where. The teacher then informed our daughter that even though her Opa was in a tank during the war, he was just as responsible for the deaths of millions as the men who poured poison gas through the vents of showers on the concentration camps.
The following morning my daughter and I both went to her school and after tearing the principal a new one, I told the history teacher there were no hangman's nooses in my family tree, but if he ever spoke that way about my father to his granddaughter again, he would be our first.
She was re-instated with a full apology.

It is an easy thing for me to "stand up", Tom. I was raised in a country that gives me the right to speak my mind. I was not born into a dictatorship. I was not raised under occupation. I don't have the fear of, "With this trouble, better not we make things worse."

I think for many Germans national pride is still a minefield. If one speaks of it loudly there is a label of nationalist. Which in itself is not a bad thing. Except when some other nations speak of German Nationalism, you can almost hear a shutter.
If one beats on his chest, then they run the risk of being called a neo.

No, not every German living in the Third Reich was a nazi. Not every German in uniform was Einsatzgruppen. Yes the Holocaust did happen and yes, there was blood on some German hands. But not all, and not now.

The point is Germany will not be able to move ahead until the rest of the world is ready to put the past in its proper place, and begin to see Germans outside the genre of comic books, B movies and "Victor's Histories".

A slow transformation that has already started.

In recent years three German made motion pictures about the war have been released and widely embraced by people of other countries. "Stalingrad", "Downfall" and "As far As My Feet Will Carry Me". All three draw distinct lines between the nazi, and the common German solider. All three have put a human face under the brim of the stalhelm.

There are a number of videos that can be accessed on of all things, Youtube, where contemporary songs sing tribute to the common German Soldier, and given positive feedback from viewers the world over.

Right now, forums such as this discuss such issues to achieve a better understanding of history and each other, and all before an international audience.

Maybe some day I'll have a grandchild who will stand up in history class, give a recital on his or her great-grandpa, and come home with an "A".