Who was better?

[Hobilar]

Originally Posted by Klaus

@ Hobilar: being out of touch with your Highcommand doesn't have to be a bad thing. During "Fall gelb" (the invasion of france) Rommel advanced so quick, that even the Highcommand somtimes didn't know were they were. Thus earning them the name "Geister Division" ("ghost division").

Fine-You might be able to get away with such things as a Divisional Commander, but as an Army Group Commander then a bit more responsibility might well be in order.

[Klaus]

Hm, you are propably right about that.

[Hobilar]

Originally Posted by 515

Montgomery masterminded Operation Market Garden, which was a complete failure.

If punching a 60 mile salient through the German defences and coming close to creating a bridgehead across the Rhine (thus outflanking the Siegfried Line) is a 'complete failure', then I would hate to think what you would consider an 'outstanding success'. Eisenhower. at the time, was extremely pleased with what 21st Army group had achieved, and fill of praise for the brave airborne formations.

OK, so the operation didn't achieve all that ot was meant to do, but this was mainly as a result of bad weather and communications failures. No battle ever goes according to plan (most battle plans rarely survive the first hour of combat). Montgomery, ever the professional soldier, would have taken this into account and (in my opinion) if any criticism of his plan should be made, then it should be that of delaying to implement a 'Plan B' as soon as it became clear that 1st Airborne had encountered serious trouble.

[Klaus]

I'm with Hobilar on this one. Saying "Market garden" was a complete faliure would be harsh. If not unfair to Montgomery.

But due to a lack of coordination between SHAEF, the 21. Army and the 1. Allied air landing army they were not prepared for such a battle. The allies thought that they will only encounter Hitler Youth and Volksturm as opponents in Arnheim, since regular German units had left. They didn't know that the 2. SS Panzerkorps under SS Obergruppenfuehrer William Bittrich was still in this area. The corps was far from its desired strength, but was however far superior to the relatively easily equipped British and Polish paratroopers. Although the Netherlands resistance movement passed on Photos of the returning tanks to the Allied command, these Photos were not considered in the following phase.






"It is good to have a plan, but you should be prepared to improvise."

[Sarge]

Its always interested me that Monty was apparently slated for his Normandy campaign. The basic premise was that the British sat brewing tea while the US got on with the battle.

In reality Monty achieved all that he set out to do in Normandy. His plan was for a 90 day battle and it went roughly according to the plan. Sure, some of his ststements regarding Caen in particular did him no good, but he was the overall Commander of all Allied forces until the breakout when Ike took overall command.

There was a huge political campaign against him by both US and British commanders which he did himself no favours by various political statements of his own.

However his plan always was to hold the main German strength tight up against the British sector while allowing the US front to build up enough strength to break out.

I think history has been a little unkind to Monty who was not in my opinion a particularly likeable person, but that shouldn't take anything away from his achievements.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Sarge

...There was a huge political campaign against him by both US and British commanders which he did himself no favours by various political statements of his own...I think history has been a little unkind to Monty who was not in my opinion a particularly likeable person, but that shouldn't take anything away from his achievements.

These are undeniable truths. I agree that he was better than he is remembered as, but perhaps also not as good as he thought of himself.

[515]

True. Saying complete failure is a bit harsh. I didnt mean it to be that harsh. But remeber that the British 6th airborn lost 8,000 men. Or the other way around lol. 8th airborn, 6,000 men. One of those. They did achieve ground. I probably should have thought it through a bit before i posted.

[Hobilar]

Originally Posted by Sarge

I think history has been a little unkind to Monty who was not in my opinion a particularly likeable person, but that shouldn't take anything away from his achievements.

Lets face it-You don't get to become a Field Marshal by winning a popularity contest. You get to be a Field Marshal by being a bigger B****** than every one else.

I don't suppose Montgomery ever gave a moments thought to whether he was liked by Politicians, other Generals, or even the men under his command.

With the lives of a million men in his hands (plus the responsibility for the fate of the millions of citizens at home should he fail) many a man would not have been able to sleep at night.

[Klaus]

You certainly don't get made Fieldmarshall for cooking the finest tes in the Army. Thats for sure.

[515]

i too have heard that Rommel was captured and escaped. Im pretty sure that its true. Dont know know. dont hold it to me