21 Division 22nd Pnzr Regiment tank colors

[Panzermacher]

I got a scanner...but not that book, But I do have many other pics. Just let me know what vehicles you need and I can try and find em...

[MAGNA]

I think these are from the same book Pirate mentioned.

1st pic. Panzer IV and a Pak40 Geschutzwagen of the stug Battalion based on a Hotchkiss chassis.



pic 2. 10.5cm Field howitzer Geschutwagen based on a Hotchkiss.
Stug III.
Schwerer Ladungstrager remote controlled demolition layer.


The book lists the 22nd reg as having 4 Pz III, 117 Pz IV, 12 Flak Pz, 10 Stug, 2 Pz Bef.

[BillyTucci]

Originally Posted by Pirate-Drakk

If I had a scanner I would be happy to help you out, in the mean time, just read my mind....or buy the book.
Arrr!

Will do!

[BillyTucci]

Originally Posted by MAGNA

I think these are from the same book Pirate mentioned.

1st pic. Panzer IV and a Pak40 Geschutzwagen of the stug Battalion based on a Hotchkiss chassis.
Attachment 1296


pic 2. 10.5cm Field howitzer Geschutwagen based on a Hotchkiss.
Stug III.
Schwerer Ladungstrager remote controlled demolition layer.
Attachment 1297

The book lists the 22nd reg as having 4 Pz III, 117 Pz IV, 12 Flak Pz, 10 Stug, 2 Pz Bef.

Guys,
I too have found that there weren't any Pz VI's in the 22nd. I'm going to speak with one of the 442nd RCT soldiers today and will ask him if he saw one while relieving the Lost Battalion.

In one of the most detailed books "Lost Battalions" by Franz Stiedl, on the battle of the Vosges, relates the story of a lone Tiger probing, harassing and hunting 1st Btln/141st through their seven days of being trapped. Even on a website dedicated to the 442nd has a painting of them fighting a Tiger 1. I think the painting is in Washington, but will find out. I've already written (and it plays a major part) the Lost Battalion being hunted by this Tiger (New Sgt. Rock graphic novel for DC Comics which is fiction based on fact) that I have to keep it in the story. It's puzzling, and I want to keep things as factual as possible (at least use the right color schemes) for a tank in the book... I guess I'll just swing the story so that the tank commander - he's supposedly a very famous tanker ala Michael Whittmann -- is detached from the 21st and personally requested by his friend, Gen. Wiese to probe the battalion as the 22nd is directed to block the advancing 36th Division.

Here's a small image of the painting of the Nisie in the Vosges with the Tiger -- will try and find a larger file.



Again, thanks guys for your help.

[MAGNA]

Maybe there was a Tiger I there and maybe there wasn't. A lot of tanks were taken to be the Tiger as it was the best known by name. Many troops had never seen a German tank and many did not recognise different types.

The Panzer IV with schurtzen around the turret was often mistaken for a Tiger I from a distance. Many troops (including tank crews) were Tiger conscious to the point of seeing any German tank as a Tiger. That is why there are many accounts of attacks by Tigers when it is shown later that there were none at all in the area described.

So even eye witnesses can give you incorrect information if they were not trained to differentiate between vehicles. It is easier for us as we are interested in the different types and study them. The main interest for the men of that time was staying alive.

I'm sure you will get a good result though as you are obviously putting in the effort to find things out.

[BillyTucci]

Originally Posted by MAGNA

Maybe there was a Tiger I there and maybe there wasn't. A lot of tanks were taken to be the Tiger as it was the best known by name. Many troops had never seen a German tank and many did not recognise different types.

The Panzer IV with schurtzen around the turret was often mistaken for a Tiger I from a distance. Many troops (including tank crews) were Tiger conscious to the point of seeing any German tank as a Tiger. That is why there are many accounts of attacks by Tigers when it is shown later that there were none at all in the area described.

So even eye witnesses can give you incorrect information if they were not trained to differentiate between vehicles. It is easier for us as we are interested in the different types and study them. The main interest for the men of that time was staying alive.

I'm sure you will get a good result though as you are obviously putting in the effort to find things out.

Thanks,
I figured so about the identification. As it's Sgt. Rock and the majority of those reading, won't care, I know I'm safe. It's just me wanting to get things right. It drives me crazy.

B

[Pirate-Drakk]

Originally Posted by MAGNA

I think these are from the same book Pirate mentioned.

Those are the pics! Nice find.

[gi-rene]

Originally Posted by BillyTucci

Guys,
I too have found that there weren't any Pz VI's in the 22nd. I'm going to speak with one of the 442nd RCT soldiers today and will ask him if he saw one while relieving the Lost Battalion.

In one of the most detailed books "Lost Battalions" by Franz Stiedl, on the battle of the Vosges, relates the story of a lone Tiger probing, harassing and hunting 1st Btln/141st through their seven days of being trapped. Even on a website dedicated to the 442nd has a painting of them fighting a Tiger 1. I think the painting is in Washington, but will find out. I've already written (and it plays a major part) the Lost Battalion being hunted by this Tiger (New Sgt. Rock graphic novel for DC Comics which is fiction based on fact) that I have to keep it in the story. It's puzzling, and I want to keep things as factual as possible (at least use the right color schemes) for a tank in the book... I guess I'll just swing the story so that the tank commander - he's supposedly a very famous tanker ala Michael Whittmann -- is detached from the 21st and personally requested by his friend, Gen. Wiese to probe the battalion as the 22nd is directed to block the advancing 36th Division.

Here's a small image of the painting of the Nisie in the Vosges with the Tiger -- will try and find a larger file.



Again, thanks guys for your help.

Well I'd have to stick with my dad's guns on this one and say it could be from the Schpzabt 506. Also Magna brings up a good point, every tank is a "Tiger" just like every artillery/AA piece is an "88" and every machinegun was a "42" just because those were the things feared most in the German Army...

[MAGNA]

Originally Posted by gi-rene

Well I'd have to stick with my dad's guns on this one and say it could be from the Schpzabt 506. Also Magna brings up a good point, every tank is a "Tiger" just like every artillery/AA piece is an "88" and every machinegun was a "42" just because those were the things feared most in the German Army...

Those are good points. I suppose it was also because they were the best known - in a lot of cases maybe the only ones known.

A funny example I have was from talking to a veteran years ago. He broke his leg in training so he didn't go to the front with his unit. While he was in hospital he heard a lot of stories of 88's and Spandau's from wounded troops. he was eventually posted to Italy and caught a lift in a truck to Monte Cassino. The bloke driving the truck told him to follow a track to where his unit would be. He followed the track but didn't know his unit had moved. There was no one so he kept going around the side of a big hill.

Others had explained what a nasty looking thing an 88 was and he said he froze when he tramped around a corner and there was a large gun shield about 100 yards away with a big barrel pointing at him. That was when it fired at something further down the hill. He woke up at the bottom of the hill on a stretcher.

He couldn't remember what happened but he thinks he dived over the edge. He used to tell people he was the only person to survive a direct hit from an 88 (his helmet had a dent from going over the side of the hill. It was steep and a fair way down - he got a lot of free drinks with the story). The thing is he realised later it couldn't have been an 88 because the gun shield wasn't even 3 feet tall - he just assumed and everyone else did too.

He was sent back to England to recuperate. Why ? On the way down the hill he had broken his other leg !

Poor bugger.

P.S. I can recommend those books for sure. The Wermacht Divisions are in one and Panzer Grenadier in another. They are published by Spellmount and they have more coming.

[BillyTucci]

Originally Posted by MAGNA

I think these are from the same book Pirate mentioned.

1st pic. Panzer IV and a Pak40 Geschutzwagen of the stug Battalion based on a Hotchkiss chassis.
Attachment 1296


pic 2. 10.5cm Field howitzer Geschutwagen based on a Hotchkiss.
Stug III.
Schwerer Ladungstrager remote controlled demolition layer.
Attachment 1297

The book lists the 22nd reg as having 4 Pz III, 117 Pz IV, 12 Flak Pz, 10 Stug, 2 Pz Bef.

Magna --
Thank you for the pics -- perfect!

I just got off the phone with Jimmy Yamashita -- Jimmy is "Mr. I Company" when it comes to the 442nd and the Vosges campaign. He's a very sharp 90 year old man who has no problem recalling anything. He swears it was a Tiger -- "Oh, yeah, it was a Tiger -- it was a real big one! Not like their smaller mark fours."

He told me how it machine gun cut into the bazooka crew and killed one of his friends Thomas Onaga of Maui. He was hit in the neck -- dropped the bazooka and ran screaming until he watched the "drain out of him."

Very powerful to listen to this I tell you. But someone else fired on the Tiger and it backed out. Later they found it abandoned. The crew felt they were overwhelmed by enemy infantry and it was hard to maneuver such a big machine through the Vosges.

So if it was a Tiger indeed. What unit then, the 506th? The reference is just great then!

Thanks again guys.

B