Our Unholy Alliance with the Evil Empire in WW2

[Jim O]

David,

I'm guessing that you are using some text that is pre-formatted on a word processor like Microsoft Word or even Outlook, and then cutting and pasting, and that is causing the problems. If you want to cut and paste rather than to directly enter text, then it may be better to first paste your responses into a plain text editor like Notepad and then to copy and paste. Alternatively, you can go to user options and set your text editor (near the bottom of the page) here to "Basic Editor". That should also work better. I'm guessing that this has to do with the vagaries of converting previously "marked up" text into HTML.

You might also try using the Help and Testing forum and make some trial posts to test the formatting. Also, using the "preview" function may help. The software, like any software, only works as well as the person who uses it.

Following is text from your post which I cut and pasted into Notepad, formatted in paragraphs, and repasted. I indented it only for effect.

Jim,I did use paragraphs and it showed up as having paragraphs when I wrote my response, but when I pressed “submit”, it posted without paragraphs. I don’t know if that is a defect in the posting software or not.

I agree with your definition of genocide and mass murder so I will certainly concede your point there. Where we differ is that you seem to think Hitler was more evil because he focused on killing one particular group whereas Stalin was a more equal opportunity mass murderer who liked killing off pretty much everybody—his own people, people in other countries, even his staunchest allies just because it gave him personal pleasure to do so. His favorite thing to do was to prepare lists of thousands to be executed each day. He thought he was a god, but instead he was a devil. He killed many times more innocent people then did Hitler. Hitler at least did not want to commit genocide until his last few years in power. He had long hoped to create a Jewish homeland state where he could export all the Jews of Europe preferably Madagascar when the British denied him that opportunity. Only in 1942 did he became a monster when he decided to kill six million or so of them.“Stalin may have been a mass murderer, but he didn't write _Mein Kamp_ and implement a "Final Solution". When Hitler imposed his genocidal (and I use that term correctly) rage outside the borders of Großdeutschland, in fact outside of the 1919 borders then one can argue that the world had an obligation to stop him.”

This I think is a bit of a distortion of actual history. Britain and France did not declare war on Germany to stop Hitler to stop “the final solution” since of course Hitler did not even come up with that idea until three years after the war began after the Brits had stymied his plan to deport all of Europe Jews to a Jewish homeland state. Ironically this was the same goal as Jewish terror groups at the time two of which offered to ally with Hitler to free Palestine from British rule and establish Hitler’s planned Jewish homeland state there.

As you can see, it all comes out one color, with line breaks.


Now, as for distortions, I said Hitler mentioned gassing Jews, Here it is, from Mein Kampf:

If the German working class, in 1914, consisted of real Marxists the War would have ended within three weeks. Germany would have collapsed before the first soldier had put a foot beyond the frontiers. No. The fact that the German people carried on the War proved that the Marxist folly had no yet been able to penetrate deeply. But as the War was prolonged German soldiers and workers gradually fell back into the hands of the Marxist leaders; and the number of those who thus relapsed became lost to their country. At the beginning of the War, or even during the War, if twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrews who were corrupting the nation had been forced to submit to poison-gas, just as hundreds of thousands of our best German workers from every social stratum and from every trade and calling had to face it in the field, then the millions of sacrifices made at the front would not have been in vain. On the contrary: If twelve thousand of these malefactors had been eliminated in proper time probably the lives of a million decent men, who would be of value to Germany in the future, might have been saved.

It's a somewhat vague reference but one nevertheless.

On many points we do not have a great divergence. Yes many rose up against Lenin, but Lenin won the civil war despite outside interference against him. Where were these people in the 1920's? The 1930's? The 1950's?

I'm not worried about anti-Semitism. Most world leaders of the time were. Heck, Patton was and he's my avatar. Being anti-semitic and murdering Jews are different. So my question is...what would you have done if you were US President from 1933-1945?

As for voicing opinions, that is fine. And "guessing" that Hitler would have been no more evil than was Stalin is fine. It crosses the line at name calling, belittling, demeaning, and insults. I know that you know the difference. It also crosses the line here to lace your opinions with political invective (like "liberal media" which you know is a pejorative catchphrase and you can do so much better than that). I don't think that's really hard to understand. I simply do not want this site to become a place for political and personal pissing battles and attacks. It's for discussion of World War II and not for propaganda and agenda. If you are not interested in participating in a such a discussion, that is one where you do not interject your personal politics, that is your choice.

Of course there is a Rants and Raves area of the site where you can rant all you want about politics and politicians and the rules will be a little more lax, but courtesy is still a minimum.

[PanzerGeneral]

Jim,“On many points we do not have a great divergence. Yes many rose up against Lenin, but Lenin won the civil war despite outside interference against him. Where were these people in the 1920's? The 1930's? The 1950's?”They went underground engaging in acts of resistance and sabotage in and out of the Soviet Union in actions short of Civil War. Some Russian and Ukrainian groups relocated to Paris and others to Berlin. Of course, the vast majority of them were slaughtered with US and British assistance in Operation Keelhaul in 1945. The last major resistance effort to the Soviets was the Ukrainian Nationalist Organization I believe led by Stephen Bandera which had some successes in the 1950’s before it was exterminated by the KGB.“I'm not worried about anti-Semitism. Most world leaders of the time were. Heck, Patton was and he's my avatar. Being anti-semitic and murdering Jews are different. So my question is...what would you have done if you were US President from 1933-1945?”You are right about anti-Semitism. We had a lot of them as political and military leaders on the Allied side during the war. Stalin mass murdered Soviet Jews at various times during his dictatorship, but not on the same scale as Hitler. I’m a big time Patton fan myself and he remains one of the heroes of my book commanding the D-day invasion of southern China in December 1944, and the China Theater in action against first Japan and then Soviet forces in China, Siberia and Mongolia.Your question about what I would have done if I had been US President from 1933-1945 is an excellent one. First of all, I would not have implemented fascism in America as FDR did. I would not have incited the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. I would have supported efforts for peaceful resolution of European differences. I would have counseled Britain and France to rearm while encouraging Nazi Germany and the Evil Empire to bleed each other dry likely leading to Hitler’s demise without a drop of Western blood being shed and thus saving the lives of Western Jews. If nothing else, getting Germany to exhaust itself in a long war of attrition against the mighty Red Army would have allowed Britain and France to conserve their strength and re-arm and strike at Germany at the time of their choosing. I would have covertly supported all efforts of the anti-Hitler resistance to oust him from power by whatever means necessary. In the event of a US war with Germany, which would not have been necessary in light of the above, I would have been willing to coordinate strategy with Stalin in terms of jointly timed offensives and such, but I would not have provided any direct military or military industrial assistance to aid his murderous regime in enslaving half of Europe, northeast Asia and mainland China. Instead, I would have come to an agreement with Stalin based on realist balance of power calculations that we each side would control whatever territory it could occupy, essentially racing the Soviets to capture as much of Europe as possible in order to ensure its liberation from totalitarian control and essentially sign a non-aggression pact with Stalin that we would not come to blows when our two armies met somewhere in central or eastern Europe. Alternatively, I would have offered conditional surrender terms to Germany that if they got rid of Hitler and top Nazi leaders, banning the Nazi party from power and withdrew from France, the Low Countries, Denmark, Norway and Italy, we would be willing to accept their conditional surrender and allow them to continue their war against the Soviets in the east with Allied logistical assistance. I would never accepted the destruction, starvation or dismemberment of Germany since that is what opened up the door to Soviet hegemony in Europe in the first place.“As for voicing opinions, that is fine. And "guessing" that Hitler would have been no more evil than was Stalin is fine. It crosses the line at name calling, belittling, demeaning, and insults. I know that you know the difference. It also crosses the line *here* to lace your opinions with political invective (like "liberal media" which you know is a pejorative catchphrase and you can do so much better than that). I don't think that's really hard to understand. I simply do not want this site to become a place for political and personal pissing battles and attacks. It's for discussion of World War II and not for propaganda and agenda. If you are not interested in participating in a such a discussion, that is one where you do not interject your personal politics, that is your choice.”I don’t consider myself ranting and raving. I did not guess that Hitler would have been no more evil than Stalin. He was no more evil and Stalin killed about three times more people than Hitler did and had Hitler “won” WW2 instead of Stalin he would have killed a lot less people than the Communists ended up doing because he had already killed all but several hundred thousand of the Jews and the only other major group he targeted aside from some political opponents were the Communists of which there were fewer still. I didn’t use the term “liberal media”. I used the term “liberal establishment historians”. I do not understand why that term seems offensive to you since it is commonly accepted fact that the education and media establishment in this country is predominantly liberal and progressive in nature. Also, I don’t believe I was at all discourteous in my response to you. I have posted no propaganda. My only agenda is to expose propaganda, educate people and disseminate knowledge of the truth and facts about various aspects of the war.Best,PanzerGeneral

[sniper1shot]

Um, thanks for the history lesson here PG. It has been awhile since I have seen one person take up almost 2 pages.
Wondering if you could keep the posts a little shorter and more to the point?

[gao_yixing]

Of course Soviet Union is unholy, but who is holy?
What about the war crimes commited by Allied soldiers?
Soviet Union had the Great Purge, China had the Cultural Revolution, but who is Joseph MacCarthy?
It's not the question that who is holy and who is unholy, it's who is more devil, right?

I'm living in a communist country. I don't believe in communism. But I don't think that communism has much to do with genocide. Russia suffered much more than Allied countries did. Maybe that's the most important reason why they were so cruel.
Do you still remember what GI did in Vietnam? During a war, no one is holy at all.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by gao_yixing

It's not the question that who is holy and who is unholy, it's who is more devil, right?

Very well said.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Intresting discussion here. However, I find 'Panzergeneral's posts extreemly difficult to read, they are not well structured, even though I agree with a few of his points. Evil empires? Most empires do evil at some stage. I agree with gao's comment there. About the Soviets. Well it would be safe to say that it was better that the Soviets didn't achieve a total victory on the Eastern front against the Wehrmacht in late 1944 or early 1945, otherwise they would have conquered more of Europe.

Anyways, considering the huge industrial might of the USA, as demonstrated on D Day, the Western Allies could have defeated the Reich without the Soviet's help. Or maybe, perhaps, support Stauffenberg and overthrow Hitler, saving many lives of German, British, Russian and American boys and extending the line of the future Cold war eastwards.

I recognize the writing style without the name

I doubt that if he was in the Panzerwaffe he would even reach the rank of Gerfreiter, never mind General der Panzertruppen! Good one Jim

David, just remember, some poeple may not agree with you, and everyone has a right to their own opinion, but please keep it apolitical.

~K, rEal Confused

[Lancer44]

Originally Posted by Helmut Von Moltke

Intresting discussion here...the Western Allies could have defeated the Reich without the Soviet's help. Or maybe, perhaps, support Stauffenberg and overthrow Hitler, saving many lives of German, British, Russian and American boys and extending the line of the future Cold war eastwards.

Impossible...

1. Western Powers would not defeat Germany without CCCP - Russia involvement.
No way in the world, and I can bet all money I have and will have on it!!!
And I will win!

NO WAY!!!! As much I'm an ardent anti-communist - this is impossi9ble!

2. Stauffenberg have to be separated from real opposition in Germany...
THERE WAS NOT SUCH THING!!!!

Sweet dream developed in Germany to preserve at least a bit of national pride in an otherwise destroyed nation.

Cheers,

Lancer44

[Jim O]

I agree with Lancer. The idea that a successful invasion of Europe could have been mounted from the west without the huge commitment of German soldiers, matériel, and supplies necessary on the Eastern Front is doubtful at best. Overlord, should it have even been planned, might very likely have failed.

[Tom Houlihan]

Originally Posted by Jim O

Overlord, should it have even been planned, might very likely have failed.

Well, just imagine the overall picture if even 1/4 of the divisions that were active on the Ostfront were able to be shifted to the Normandy area? Along with just one general brave enough to say "Well, when he wakes up, tell the Führer I've attacked the enemy with my panzers!"

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Sorry, a tpying error there, I originally meant that the Western Allies could have chosen not to associate themselves with the Soviets at all, but the Wehrmacht would still be heavily engaged in holding back the Soviets, and the original German strength in Normandy would be the same as historically.

K