German and Russian Designs on Poland and Eastern Europe

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Klaus

And Japan being an allie of Germany, Hitler was forced to declare war to the US as well.

Actually this is not technically correct. The terms of the Axis agreement only provided for an obligation to declare war if one of those nations was to be attacked. See the text of the Tripartite Pact below and note Article 3.

ARTICLE 1. Japan recognizes and respects the leadership of Germany and Italy in the establishment of a new order in Europe.

ARTICLE 2. Germany and Italy recognize and respect the leadership of Japan in the establishment of a new order in Greater East Asia.

ARTICLE 3. Japan, Germany, and Italy agree to cooperate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further untertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means if one of the Contracting Powers is attacked by a Power at present not involved in the European War or in the Japanese-Chinese conflict.

ARTICLE 4. With a view to implementing the present pact, joint technical commissions, to be appointed by the respective Governments of Japan, Germany and Italy, will meet without delay.

ARTICLE 5. Japan, Germany and Italy affirm that the above agreement affects in no way the political status existing at present between each of the three Contracting Powers and Soviet Russia.

ARTICLE 6. The present pact shall become valid immediately upon signature and shall remain in force ten years from the date on which it becomes effective.

In due time, before the expiration of said term, the High Contracting Parties shall, at the request of any one of them, enter into negotiations for its renewal.

Since Japan attacked US, not the other way around, Hitler was not obligated to declare war. This is also why Japan never was "forced" to go to war with the Soviets, much to Hitler's great bitterness.

[Klaus]

Oh, never knew that. Won't make this mistake again. I'm not Hitler after all.

So let me recap:
If the US had declared war on Japan, Hitler would have been "forced" (according to the article 3) to declare war on the US.

If Stalin had declared war on Germany, Japan would have been "forced" to declare war on Russia.

Is that correct so far?

[Jim O]

That's correct at least according to the terms of the agreement. But...whether either side would have kept her agreement is another question.

[Klaus]

Second. I find it hard to believe, that Japan would have helped Germany to defeat the Russian. Altough it would have been intersesting for the outcome of the war. That would have been a serious change.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Klaus

Second. I find it hard to believe, that Japan would have helped Germany to defeat the Russian. Altough it would have been intersesting for the outcome of the war. That would have been a serious change.

Well that was the whole thing for Japan. They knew that they could not survive a war against US and USSR. Ultimately, they hoped to conquer a vast empire in east Asia quickly, which they did, and then concede some back in a peace treaty with US. Obviously Roosevelt would have none of this.

The fact that USSR and Japan never went to war (until August 1945) was beneficial to both, more so to USSR obviously. It allowed Stalin to bring his best forces to the European war, leaving second and third line reserve troops in the Far East, and similarly it allowed Japan to use their best troops in the war against US and her allies, while leaving a (relatively) small, garrison type force in Manchuria.

[DDLDSDB]

(anti Nazi) The Marshall Cavendish Illustrated Encyclopedia of WW2, "The German invasion of Poland was launched after the Polish ambassador in Berlin refused to see Hitlers proposals for a peaceful solution to the problem of Danzig and the corridor".Even 'El Duce' tried to get a 5 power conference in Paris to examine the versailles'treaty'.Hitler would have withdrawn his troops except for Danzin,which was German.The 'allies'preferred war. Germany did try hard for peace.

Poland had a million man army,30 modern equiped infantry div. with a 100,000 reserve back up. They had 300 tanks,not just horse calv. which every major nation had at that time.They had a modern navy also. 5 subs,4 destroyers,6 mine sweepers and a mine layer.For the confines of the Baltic, more than adaquat.Also being more up to date than the 'schleswig-Holstein'which fired the first shots of the war.(the Polish sub 'orzel' sunk the German transport 'Rio de janeiro in the Baltic on 4/8/40.) Their air fleet was most formadable. Long range med. bombers (golden bear) made sorties just outside of Berlin. The 'Elk' flew 40 mph. faster than the He-111 with each having a 5,600 lb. bomb load.Although the Me-109 was superior,the Poles had pzl p11 (among others)which was very nimble and fast. One p11 downed 2 Do med bombers.(first aerial vic. of the Polish campaign.) 285 German aircraft were lost. 40,000 German casualties (dead,wounded,missing) in just 1 mounth was hardly a "cake walk". As far as the #'s, on paper they were misleading. Germany did have more numerous forces but most had to be ready for France and England should they attack from the west. Poland knew they could not win alone. They were sold out by the glorious allies. (this being only the first time) So, Poland was not the poor out gunned army 'historians' try to make her out to be. They fought hard and bravely.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by DDLDSDB

(anti Nazi) The Marshall Cavendish Illustrated Encyclopedia of WW2, "The German invasion of Poland was launched after the Polish ambassador in Berlin refused to see Hitlers proposals for a peaceful solution to the problem of Danzig and the corridor".Even 'El Duce' tried to get a 5 power conference in Paris to examine the versailles'treaty'.Hitler would have withdrawn his troops except for Danzin,which was German.The 'allies'preferred war. Germany did try hard for peace.

Hitler was more than willing to peacefully accomplish his aims, but his was a militaristic dictatorship fully prepared for war. As long as he could be appeased, or grab territory "peacefully" (like the Anschluss with Austria or the seizure of Czechoslovakia) he would do so. But anyone who has read Mein Kampf knows that eventually he planned war for purposes of having lebensraum and colonies. Anyone who believes that Hilter would have been satisified with a small bit of Poland (taking Poland's corridor to the sea and leaving her landlocked and truly at the mercy of Germany and USSR) is ignoring the obvious. Maybe in September 1939 he would have been so satisfied, but not in the long term.

History is the best predictor of the futue. Witness what happened after Hitler was granted a small part of Czechoslovakia. He wound up grabbing the rest. Same thing would almost certainly have happened in Poland.

Then look at what happened in the portion of Poland not formally annexed to Germany, the General Government. That was ruled as a dictatorship by Hans Frank and the brutal treatment of the Poles in that sector was extraordinary, even by Nazi standards. The Generalplan Ost was to deport all "non-Germanized" Poles (along with Czechs, Ukrainians, Belarussions, Russians, Lithiuanians, etc.) to western Siberia. Do you really believe that all this would not have happened if only the "Danzig Question" had been solved peacefully? Hitler used the so-called (and often real) persecution of ethnic German minorities outside the Reich as merely an excuse. If he were such a great humanitarian and truly concerned for the rights of minorities, then clearly he would not have murdered, persecuted, and deported Poles from those areas of Poland annexed as part of Großdeutschland after the Polsih campaign. Hitler was many things, including extremely gifted at uniting his people, but he was also a brutal dictator with an agenda that included conquering Europe and subjugating and enslaving "inferior races", and a plan for doing just that.

[Klaus]

The polish had 39 divisions. The Gemany, USSR and Slovaks 92 divisions.
poland had 880 tanks, The enemy 2700 tanks. Don't get me wrong. I don't say the Polish were wankers. They put up a good fight. But do the math and you'll see that they had no chance.

[Lancer44]

Originally Posted by Klaus

The polish had 39 divisions. The Gemany, USSR and Slovaks 92 divisions.
poland had 880 tanks, The enemy 2700 tanks. Don't get me wrong. I don't say the Polish were wankers. They put up a good fight. But do the math and you'll see that they had no chance.

Hi Klaus,

880 tanks... well... if you count junk Renault FT-17 which were not used at all.
(The only known to me place where Polish Army used FT-!7s was Brest fortress and used more as movable barriers than to fight.)

7-TP were good - world first diesel tanks, formidable opponents of Pz-II and Pz-III of this time, (Czech Pz-38T were a bit better.)

7-TP did not burn as easy as petrol powered tanks - problem was, that in Poland diesel engines were so rare, that when supply columns were cut off or destroyed by Luftwaffe, there was no way of refuelling 7-TP.

80% of 7-TP were not lost in action, but destroyed by crews - lack of diesel fuel.

TK and TKS were more than match for German Pz-I. But thinly spread as cavalry and infantry support, had the same fate as French much stronger armoured forces in 1940.

Blitzkrieg - combination of Clausewitz way of thinking and bold action, was unstoppable... Stupidity of some Polish commanders was important as well.
CIC Rydz-Smigly was just "not right men at not right place".
Poland could not win the war against Germany, but could resist longer, perhaps until spring 1940 holding "Romanian bridgehaed" awaiting French offensive. Soviet "stab at the back" finished all hopes.

What happened after, we all know...
Since than French tanks have three gears reverse and one gear forward -"Just in case the enemy is at the back..."


Cheers,


Lancer44

P.S.

I reckon thread is going off topic...
Where MODs are ...????????????? As always drinking beer when we need them!!!!!!

I jumped on the bandwagon just because Klaus was talking about Poland - - BUT WHAT IS THE MAIN TOPIC?????

L44

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Lancer44

Where MODs are ...????????????? As always drinking beer when we need them!!!!!!

I jumped on the bandwagon just because Klaus was talking about Poland - - BUT WHAT IS THE MAIN TOPIC?????

L44

I thought about separating the last several posts and merging/creating a new thread but intentionally decided to let the discussion continue since it was an offshoot of the original topic, which was post-war boundary of Poland and Germany. I don't mind a topic meandering a bit, but hijacking is another thing. I don't see it as being hijacked. I guess there can be a fine line in terms of how far the topic strays. Much of the posting still reflects, in some way, on the post-war Polish boundaries, though some in a hypothetical way.

If people would like this thread split and dismembered, one of the mods can do just that.