German and Russian Designs on Poland and Eastern Europe

[DDLDSDB]

I had not heard of the 'Stalin letter' before this. It seems kind of hard to beleive he would have even entertained the thought after FDR gave him the go ahead for all of eastern Europe at potsdam and Yalta. Poland was sold down the river as well as Europe in general.

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[Ingsoc]

Originally Posted by Jim O

No one is debating that there are stories of such a note, but where is something suggesting 1937 borders?

I still looking for the sourse to where I read it.

Originally Posted by DDLDSDB

I had not heard of the 'Stalin letter' before this. It seems kind of hard to beleive he would have even entertained the thought after FDR gave him the go ahead for all of eastern Europe at potsdam and Yalta. Poland was sold down the river as well as Europe in general.

What it's got to do to FDR, Postdam or Poland? if it was sincere it's was just a tactical manuever, give up the DDR so the west would give up the BRD and thus make the USSR stronger in the balance of power.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Ingsoc

What it's got to do to FDR, Postdam or Poland?

It has everything to do with Poland if 1937 borders were discussed.

[DDLDSDB]

If FDR had not given all of eastern Europe away(at potsdam,yalta) in the first place, then there most likely wouldn't have been a Stalin letter.

[Lancer44]

Originally Posted by Ingsoc

FDR didn't give anything for the simple fact it's impossible to give away something that you didn't have, the Soviet army rule eastern Europe, so infact FDR onlt recongise reallity.

It is oversimplification. FDR gave away the sphere of interests which always belonged to France and UK. All Eastern and Central European countries, (except Bulgaria which was very pro-Russian and later pro-soviet), hoped that after the war Western sphere of interest will be restored.
FDR betrayed them.
He gave to Stalin half of Europe and wasted life of a few generations.
Just to be friendly to Uncle Joe.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Lancer44

It is oversimplification. FDR gave away the sphere of interests which always belonged to France and UK. All Eastern and Central European countries, (except Bulgaria which was very pro-Russian and later pro-soviet), hoped that after the war Western sphere of interest will be restored.
FDR betrayed them.
He gave to Stalin half of Europe and wasted life of a few generations.
Just to be friendly to Uncle Joe.

This is all true, but...also a bit of oversimplification. There is an English idiom that goes "possesion is nine-tenths of the law". Even if FDR had taken a harder line, what then? Would Stalin have relented? Stalin had two armies in reserve in Poland at the end of the war should the Western Allies fail to live up to agreements. He didn't trust Western Allies any more than they trusted him. Would US and British forces have wanted further war in Europe while still at war with Japan, which USSR was not? They might have been able to defeat Red Army because it was now quite depeleted of manpower, but maybe not.

You also neglect to mention that Serbia was natural Russian ally, and that Yugoslavia had mostly liberated itself via Tito's partisans. Tito was a Croat (actually half Croatian, half Slovenian), and he was able to hold Serb dominated Yugoslavia together and had no interest in being part of "Western sphere".

Poland was betrayed, perhaps to the greatest extent, although I would include Czechoslovakia in this category also. Hungary and Romania were German allies and were defeated. Bulgaria was Axis leaning. Poland was Western oriented and Catholic. And after all, Britain and France had allegedly gone to war over Poland's sovereignty. US had gone to war in Europe ostensibly because of Hilter's unilateral declaration of war of December 11, 1941. Whether US public opinion would have allowed FDR to even enter the European war if not for that move is debatable at best. Even after the attack at Pearl Harbor, US sentiment was strongly against getting involved in Europe's problems. People in US felt that US should take care of Japan,as she had attacked us. In fact, Hitler figured that US would concentrate on Japan and not on Europe and he was surprised by the turn of events. With all that in mind, challenging Stalin over Europe in further war would have been unthinkable to US public.

I'm not apologizing for the actions of the leaders, merely trying to put them in perspective. Perhaps people prefer Chamberlain to Churchill? After all, he saw Stalin as bigger threat and that is why he appeased Hitler...to a point. But when USSR invaded Poland on September 17, 1939, why did he not also declare war on USSR? There are many guilty parties here, not just FDR. But the number one guilty party is Hilter with Stalin a close second. I wouldn't put the Western leaders even in their league.

[DDLDSDB]

"But when USSR invaded Poland on September 17, 1939, why did he not also declare war on USSR? There are many guilty parties here, not just FDR. But the number one guilty party is Hilter with Stalin a close second. I wouldn't put the Western leaders even in their league."

It is true,England and France were hipocrites when it came to backing up Poland. And yes they should have attacked Russian

FDR and Churchill were the main instigators and most responsible for all of eastern Europe coming under Communism. (WW2) The "westerrn leaders " were the one's in cahoots with Stalin. Hitler was the one who wasn't in their league.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by DDLDSDB

The "westerrn leaders " were the one's in cahoots with Stalin. Hitler was the one who wasn't in their league.

And that was a consequence, simply put, of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". War, like politics, makes for strange bedfellows. They were "in cahoots" because they had a common enemy, after Barbarossa for Britain and after December 11, 1941 for US. Fighting both Germany and USSR at that moment in time would have been a silly move for either leader. Letting the Nazis and the Soviets fight it out and then going after the victor might have made more sense militarily, but the only way to have beaten Stalin would have been to really beat him on Russian soil. Hitler (and Napoleon) proved that conquering Russia from the west isn't so easy to do. In fact, no one has ever succeeded in "conquering" Russia from the west (though the Russians did sue for peace in the first war because of internal turmoil, they were hardly "conquered").

It's easy to look through the "retrospectoscope"; much harder to look into the future with any accuracy.

And again, does anyone reading this really believe that US public opinion in 1941 or in 1945 would have allowed for further war in Europe to take back Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, etc? What could FDR really have done once Soviet troops were on the ground there, short of a war which was not an option for him? Stalin, on the other hand, was ready to fight for his "buffer". That much is well documented in Soviet archives.

People forget some important facts here. This was a war that Hitler and his people asked for, and started in fact when when Poland was invaded and France and Britain responded. The US was not directly involved in these events. The US became directly involved in the European conflict only after Hitler declared war on December 11, 1941 (perhaps one of his biggest mistakes). The US had never guaranteed Polish borders or sovereignty. So what was her responsibility?

For those angry at FDR (and by the way, I agree that he made his share of mistakes, but to call his actions a "betrayal" of anything is overstating his obligations), let us remember the following numbers:

• USA: Total KIA, all theatres, about 400,000. Civilian deaths, about 11,000. Total of 3.2/1000 population.
• USSR: Total KIA, about 10,000,000. Civilian deaths (including Holocaust victims), over 15,000,000. This is well in excess of 100/1000 population.

Once again, I am not taking a political stand here. I'm just trying to look at the facts.

WorldWarII-MilitaryDeaths-Allies-Piechart.png

There is no "just" war and there is no "moral" war. The US was in the war in Europe to win for the US. That is the sad truth, but it is the reality of war. As someone said elsewhere in this forum, sometimes we need to look at who is the "biggest devil", not who was "more moral". Hitler's plan was to eventually annex all of Poland and kill or expel 80-85% of its citizenry over 25-30 years (see Hitler's Plans for Eastern Europe). Ukraine and Belarus would likely have suffered similar fates as the idea of Lebensraum involved creating colonies for Germany similar to those of Britain. Hitler, in Mein Kampf likened what would happen to that of India, where the (Aryan) colonists would live like kings and the locals would be kept primitive and extremely poor. I never lived under either system, but I am quite sure that the populations of those regions grew under Stalinism (eg Poland, 1939 population ~35 million, 1946 population after war, border changes, and forced expulsions of ethnic Germans, ~24 million, 1970's population, ~35 million, current population ~38 million). Despite the repressive nature of the regime, Polish post-war population grew by 50%!!. That would clearly not have been the case under the Nazis. I'm not convinced that there ever really was a third option, given the situation on the ground in 1945 and US public opinion.

[DDLDSDB]

? People forget some important facts here. This was a war that Hitler and his people asked for, and started in fact when when Poland was invaded and France and Britain responded"

Not so. Hitler and "his people" were trying to keep peace and stay out of war. He was not in the best of shape for it.Poland was quite strong at that time.The Danzig and corridor issue could have been settled if it were not for England and France saying they would back Poland with military help.Poland became very belligerant as a result. England couldn't do a thing. France did try somewhat,but too little too late.
"And again, does anyone reading this really believe that US public opinion in 1941 or in 1945 would have allowed for further war in Europe to take back Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, etc?"

US public opinion was against getting into the war in the first place. It wouldn't have made any difference what they thought. FDR got the US into war through deception. And yes. FDR did betray not just Europe but his own Nation.He was a sick man and perhaps that may have been part of the
reason. I am not sure of those figures of US deaths but that is 400,000 to many for another European war. I do agree Hitler and Stalin should have duked it out.We should have stayed out of Stalins bed.. .

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by DDLDSDB

Not so. Hitler and "his people" were trying to keep peace and stay out of war. He was not in the best of shape for it.Poland was quite strong at that time.
US public opinion was against getting into the war in the first place. It wouldn't have made any difference what they thought. .

Ok, they were "trying" to keep peace. But they didn't try hard enough , did they? When Germany invaded poland they knew perfectly well that it could be the cause for war against the tommies and the french.

Poland was no match for the German and Russian Army at all:

Date: 1 September – 6 October 1939
Location: Poland
Result: Decisive Axis and Soviet victory
Combatants: Poland vs Germany, Soviet Union, Slovakia
Commanders: Edward Rydz-?mig?y Fedor von Bock (Army Group North)
Gerd von Rundstedt (Army Group South)
Ferdinand ?atloš (Field Army Bernolak)

Strength:

Germany&Co

56 German divisions,
33+ Soviet divisions,
3 Slovak divisions,
4 German brigades,
11+ Soviet brigades,
10,000 guns
2,700 tanks
1,300 aircraft
Total:
1,800,000 Germans,
800,000+ Soviets,
50,000 Slovaks
Grand Total: 2,650,000+


Poland:

39 divisions
16 brigades
4,300 guns
880 tanks
400 aircraft
Total: 950,000



Of course the American public didn't want to go to war. After all it was a European problem. But that changed after Pearl harbour. And Japan being an allie of Germany, Hitler was forced to declare war to the US as well.