Allied Lend-Lease to Russia, thoughts please?

[TRDG]

Good post, I bet ammo is key there!! As for parts, as I read it, they did not break down as much as the other tanks, not sure if that was all other L.L. tanks or in general All Russian tanks, but yes, when they did, parts are still in the U.S. waiting to be shipped..... after the original replacement parts/if any?? where gone through!!

Cheers

Tom

[TRDG]

Further items written about the Sherman from this source

a) Can go at speed not more than 5-10 km and at highspeed, they have large skidding, especially tanks with metallic tracks.

b) Moving at speed greater than 10 Km with turning in any direction has trend to turn over.

c) On a small slopes can't move without additional towing facilities, e.g. prime movers.

d) A large turning radious is a charactor of the tank design what reduces tank manoeuverability on battlefield;

e) It has a large specific pressure on the tracks that reduces passibility of tanks.

following this experience it's reasonable tp supply them with rubber tracks in any season having reserve spur for those and equip with this tank model those units which operates at medium-cross-country.

Now after seeing this, that does not seem to be the Sherman I know, at least from the U.S. experience!! But, one has to take into consideration that there were different crews, as well as trianing, and what Russian crews were used to, before the Sherman came to the Eastern front. Terrain, I dare say, would be a main factor here as well, let alone what the Russians "expected" from their new L.L. tanks, in my opinion at least.

Cheers

Tom

[Gulf Coast]

Good link for additional info

Engines of the Red Army in WW2 - Russian Armour Overview

often debated

Complete List of Lend Lease to Russia including atomic materials

[TRDG]

Thank you Gulf Coast, I've seen the second one somewhere before, but not the first one!!!

Any thoughts from you on this topic in general, or specifically?;(

Cheers

Tom

[Pirate-Drakk]

Originally Posted by TRDG

Thank you Gulf Coast, I've seen the second one somewhere before, but not the first one!!!

That's the one I was looking for!

Check out the food stuffs sent on Page 17.

Other canned meats, excl. chicken: 2,405,696,825 lbs. $180,764,722

Nearly 2.5 billion pounds of SPAM alone! Yah, the Russians didn't need L.L. to win the war....NOT. Their population would have all starved to death without it.

[TRDG]

Yep, I saw that, but I would need a Russian food production type list as well to put that into context. I'm not saying that you are wrong here, but a little more info is needed from Russia I suspect to give this one a more broad, "sweeping" statement, in my (no real idea) opinion, that is....

Cheers, thanks P.D.!!

Tom

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Pirate-Drakk

That's the one I was looking for!

Check out the food stuffs sent on Page 17.

Other canned meats, excl. chicken: 2,405,696,825 lbs. $180,764,722

Nearly 2.5 billion pounds of SPAM alone! Yah, the Russians didn't need L.L. to win the war....NOT. Their population would have all starved to death without it.

That number is a misleading numerator without a denominator. The prewar (1941) Soviet population was just shy of 200,000,000. Even if you assume that the average population under USSR control was only 150,000,000 during the four year course of the war, that amounted to 16 pounds of SPAM per person over roughly four years, or about 4 pounds per person per year. That seems hardly enough to prevent a population from starving. I'm not saying that it was not the difference for some people, or that the 2,405,696,825 lbs. did not make a difference. I'm merely pointing out the point that any analysis of a number like that requires a look at the denominator. Otherwise it's just a number from which it is impossible to draw a valid conclusion. Even if one uses a much more conservative population estimate of only 130,000,000 it still amounts to only 18.5 pounds per person over four years or 4.6 pounds per person per year. When one factors in the caloric requirements of marching soldiers, 4.6 pounds of SPAM probably did not take them very far. SPAM alone did not feed the Soviet populace.

[TRDG]

Thanks Jim, now we have another "component" here to kick around!! I'm not to good at the numbers game for many things besides Russian population counts, or their food supplies grown and shipped, but maybe someone else does.?

Cheers, maybe compare the "spam" help to the Shermans delivered "help"?

Tom

[Gulf Coast]

1. Large parts of the Russian population were in the German occupied areas.

2. 1st Protocal of the LL was signed Oct 41.

3. War in Europe end May 45.

4. Most food stuff did not start to reach Russian until Summer 42.

5. Food stuff was never intended to feed the whole population for the durnation. How many pounds woud just the military get?

6. What did rerach Russia was something they themselves did not have to produce.

An example of this can be found in the "US Army Handbook on USSR Military Forces", where a soldiers ration is listed as consisting of (our comments are in parenthesis):

Bread (Gray or black rye varieties--pictures to follow) almost 2 pounds in winter, 1.75 pounds in summer

Wheat flour 0.7 oz

Grits about 5 oz

Macaroni, or egg noodles 1 oz (quite popular with the various peoples of the USSR)

Meat 5.25 oz (either fresh or preserved)

Fish 3.5 oz (either fresh or preserved)

Soy Flour 0.5 oz

Fats lard, chicken fat or bacon grease--About 1 oz

Vegetable oil 0.7 oz

Sugar 1.22 oz

Tea 0.035 oz

Salt 1.05 oz

Vegetables 12.7 oz (or 5.74 oz of additional grits for ease of transport)

Tomato Paste 0.21 oz

Spices 0.01 oz

Tobacco 0.7 oz

The Emergency ration consisted of:

Biscuits (tinned or sealed cardboard/paper wrapper) 17.5 oz

Concentrated food--Course I (2.6 oz of Instant soup or enriched Biscuits)

Concentrated food--Course II (7.0 oz More of the same---Where available after late 1942, Lend-Lease Tins or even some pre-packaged ration items, such as British Biscuits or dripping spread)

Smoked Sausages 3.5 oz (substituted by lard, fish conserves, bacon)

Sugar 1.2 oz

Tea 0.07 oz

Salt 0.35 oz

Meal and Ration delivery/Field Kitchens:

Planning called for hot meals in the morning and the evening, but this was likely to only be a rare occurrence, especially when war with Germany erupted.

From 1941 through mid-1942, Soviet troops fought on minimal rations, and local procurement was the norm. Greatly prized were captured German rations, and often times raids would be planned around capture of supply dumps specifically containing foodstuffs.

During the initial year of the war, many times regular soldiers would receive regular deliveries of food stuffs as likely from partisans operating behind German lines (but in a zone that was now able to produce limited amounts of food under the watchful eyes of the Wehrmacht), as through regular Red Army supply channels. Later in the war, of course, the reverse happened, as the Germans became more organized in their systematic stripping of resources from the occupied territories.

[Pirate-Drakk]

Originally Posted by Jim O

When one factors in the caloric requirements of marching soldiers, 4.6 pounds of SPAM probably did not take them very far. SPAM alone did not feed the Soviet populace.

Right you are. However, SPAM was just a single item of interest out of pages and pages of foodstuffs.

Likewise, what resources would it take to produce that much SPAM? How many farms and farmers to raise how many pigs? How many canning factories to build and the resources of people and materials? How many factory workers to produce the SPAM, etc. etc. Then add to that all the other items listed.


If one ate 1/2 a pound of of SPAM a day, the USA then sent each Russian enough SPAM alone to live over a week. 50 times that much food would keep them alive for a year. 200 times that much food would keep them alive for duration of the war and we are talking their entire population. Not just the army.

Pages 17,18, and 19 are nearly all food stuff. Complete List of Lend Lease to Russia including atomic materials

There are about 200 items on there. Things like:
Beans, dry, ripe 492,521,079 lbs. $30,353,423.

That's enough to feed every Russian for another week or so and that's a single item as well. If you just count the military as 10% of the population (it was probably closer to 5% at any given time), thats enough to feed the entire army for roughly 3 months. Not bad for a single item! Toss in the SPAM, that's 6 months of food, then keep going down the list...

Read the rest of the list and look at the tons of seeds sent as well so the Russians could grow their own food. No seed stock, no crops. Here's one example:

Vegetable Seed, n.e.s. 1,651,470 lbs. $11,665,584.

How many seeds in a pound? How many pounds of vegies can you grow per seed? It depends on various factors, but lets say "A LOT".


Early in the war the Soviets would have food stocks to keep them going until the L.L. could kick in. If the L.L. handn't come along those stores would have been gone, and there would be little to replace them.

A lack of food could have potentially lead to the complete collapse of the Soviets after a couple years of fighting. L.L. insured that this didn't happen.