Allied Lend-Lease to Russia, thoughts please?

[TRDG]

I am mainly interested in the M4A2 75mm Sherman and the 76mm, but any of the equipment shipped over there is also of interest.

The basic question is, did 2,007 75mm Shermans and 2,095 76mm Shermans really help the Russian Army out that much, in your opinion, and by the timeframe they were shipped to them until the end of the war?
This could be compared to the trucks shipped, more of a "help" I think, than the tanks, but, I did'nt know that over 2,000 76mm Shermans went over there as well, until a couple months ago.

The best source I have now is

Engines of the Red Army in WW2 - Numbers

Cheers, I hope this is the "right" forum for this!! Is there any documentation on how the Russians felt about their Allied equipment they got and used, as well? I've seen a couple things, but I wonder what you guys might have.....

Thanks

Tom

Tom, if this is your question, "did 2,007 75mm Shermans and 2,095 76mm Shermans really help the Russian Army out that much, in your opinion, and by the timeframe they were shipped to them until the end of the war?"
I will have to move this thread to the another forum. Would like to make this weapon specific, or have me move it?

cyberia

[TRDG]

cyberia

It is intended as a broad topic, kinda why I asked for a poll option before. Comparing the Shermans shipped to say the trucks, radios would be a start. If you think it is better off somewhere else, go for it. I'm still getting the hang of where to post, it is land warfare, but with some specific machines and equipment.

Cheers, sorry if I did'nt put this in a more appropriate forum.

Tom

[cyberia]

No, if its weapon specific then here is where it belongs. Discussion on lend-lease would go best in European War.

[Pirate-Drakk]

Originally Posted by cyberia

No, if its weapon specific then here is where it belongs. Discussion on lend-lease would go best in European War.

When you think about Lend Lease you have to first realize that besides guns, ammo, planes, ammo/fuel, tanks, ammo/fuel, trucks, fuel, locomotives, fuel, and spare parts for all that stuff, plus radio equipment, medical supplies, strategic materials (rubber, rare metals, gold, etc. etc.), intelligence information, and a hundred other little things.

One of the most important, if not THE most important Lend Lease item was FOOD! In one reference I read they stated that Lend Lease sent 5 times more food then required to feed the entire Soviet army for the entire war! What that really means is that the entire Soviet population was being fed by Lend Lease because their was no manpower to work the fields. Everyone was doing "war support things" or fighting on the front.

In conclusion, a couple thousand tanks of any type (while useful) had little effect on the overall war effort in the scope of the entire Lend Lease project.

[cyberia]

I did not know it was that much food.

[Pirate-Drakk]

Originally Posted by cyberia

I did not know it was that much food.

Also consider that 1940's Soviet farming technologies were mostly "horse" power so the amount of manpower to farm the land was considerable. Furthermore, the most productive farming area of Russia is the Ukraine which was taken over by Germany before the first harvest of 1941. The factories could be (were) moved behind the Ural Mountains to Siberia and eventually resumed production. However, farming Siberia was not so easy compared to the Ukraine.

In another reference I recall, was a statement by the author that the 'full effect of Lend Lease on the Russian Front will never be known because during the Cold War all references to the USA providing aid to the Soviets was expunged from the official Soviet record'. My paraphrase.

That statement I'm quoting was written before the "wall fell" and today some of those remaining records are filtering back into history. It is likely that in the post WWII Cold War the USA didn't want to admit how much aid was given to the Soviet "enemy" just years before so the Soviet Lend Lease factor was greatly down played.

[TRDG]

Thanks Pirate-Drakk

An interesting, and unknown fact to me, and others as well. Would you happen to remember a time line in years, just a general year by year?
Food is something I never thought about, you need food to feed the crews of the Lend Lease Shermans, thats for sure!!
I almost got a pic of a Sherman 76mm up here, but it did'nt quite happen, but I will get it as soon as I resort the details of posting pictures. To me, when the most Shermans seemed to arrive was thee critical part, 1944. That might have made more of an impact in the Eastern front at the time if it was in 42 or 43, but the U.S. and other Allies needed them as well. Bagration had some Shermans in use for that plan and they seemed to suffer casualties there in 1944, but I don't know what that might be compared to T-34 and T-34/85 types of losses then.
The Russian crews who had them did seem to like the Sherman for its extra room and manuverabilaty, from what I have read on other sites, compared to their T-34 and other Russian types of tanks.

Cheers, any thoughts or other opinions out there?

Tom

[Pirate-Drakk]

I once saw a complete document somewhere on the internet on all the stuff we sent to Russia but I can't find it now. I should do better at saving that stuff to keep around.

However, this link has good info on tank numbers but not good info on dates.
Axis History Factbook: Lend/Lease Vehicles (Soviet Union)

And let's not forget the 10's of thousands of planes that went to the Soviets...
Aircraft Deliveries

Useful info from this web site:
"American Lend-lease to the Soviet Union can be divided into the following phases:

- "pre Lend-lease" 22 June 1941 to 30 September 1941
- first protocol period from 1 October 1941 to 30 June 1942 (signed 1 October 1941)
- second protocol period from 1 July 1942 to 30 June 1943 (signed 6 October 1942)
- third protocol period from 1 July 1943 to 30 June 1944 (signed 19 October 1943)

- fourth protocol period from 1 July 1944, (signed 17 April 1945), formally ended 12 May 1945 but deliveries continued for the duration of the war with Japan (which the Soviet Union entered only 8 August 1945) under the "Milepost" agreement until 2 September 1945 when Japan capitulated. 20 September 1945 all Lend-Lease to Russia was terminated.

In addition to the aircraft deliveries American Lend-lease deliveries to Russia included also more than 400.000 trucks, over 12.000 tanks and other combat vehicles, 32.000 motorcycles, 13.000 locomotives and railway cars, 8.000 anti-aircraft cannons and machine-guns, 135.000 submachine guns, 300.000 tons of explosives, 40.000 field radios, some 400 radar systems, 400.000 metal cutting machi*ne tools, several million tons of foodstuff, steel, other metals, oil and gasoline, chemicals etc."

And let's not forget the ships and all the ships used to transport these materials that could have done something else:
Lend Lease

Did someone mention trucks? Here's a list...
Lend Lease trucks in Russia

Don't forget that the USA built the Al-Can Highway to Alaska and then built the trans-Siberian railway to get all that crap to the Russian Front. That's where the 1000 odd locomotives and associated rail stock that was given to the Soviets operated.

The effects of Lend Lease on the War in the East can not be downplayed like is so often done. Without it the Soviets would have lost the war, in my opinion.

Oh, didn't I mention the food?


A couple Sherman 76mm in Soviet colors for you below:

[TRDG]

Thank you sir!!!

I hope that today, I'll get my pic up here, most have probably seen it before, but, you never know.....

Cheers, more posts from me here soon, with a pic I hope!!

[Brett]

Originally Posted by TRDG

Thanks Pirate-Drakk
The Russian crews who had them did seem to like the Sherman for its extra room and manuverabilaty, from what I have read on other sites, compared to their T-34 and other Russian types of tanks.
Tom

That's news to me. I was always under the impression that
Shermans were hopelessly outclassed vs. the latest German
tanks by '42 or '43. IIRC what I have read, lend lease tanks
were used for training or in secondary fronts (such as in
the far east vs. Japan), but not usually against Germany

Originally Posted by Pirate-Drakk

Without it the Soviets would have lost the war,

I would disagree. Once the Soviet people learned that Hitler
was just as bad or worse than Stalin, there was no way they
could have lost. Lend Lease might have speeded up that
victory, but German policy was just too brutal for a German
victory.


I know its common to refer to the former USSR as
Russia, but it is vexing. Lots of Ukranians, Armenians,
Uzbeks, Estonians, etc. died stopping on the Eastern Front,
it wasn't just Russians.

It would be somewhat like a history of the Western Front
saying " ... the Texans stormed ashore on Omaha beach ...
then the Texans won the Battle of the Bulge ... "