Late-War Russian Success, 44-45.....

[Kurttis Thomas]

Ok here's what I have to say the russsians ahd an almost endless supply of men and material the Germans did not I think that up untill 1945 the German soldier was still better trained and better equpped as inquality of weapons and machines than the Russians but they simply didn't have enough to meet thier needs I think really the russian cammanders did very little tactical thinking about what might happen to their men if they took some ation because of the blind faith and obidieance to Satlin They lead divions of I nfantry to massacare in minutes over and over and over and you get it and then finnally the Germans would give and retreat. They ground down the Germans with supriority in numbers.

[Wolster]

Originally Posted by Kurttis Thomas

Ok here's what I have to say the russsians ahd an almost endless supply of men and material the Germans did not I think that up untill 1945 the German soldier was still better trained and better equpped as inquality of weapons and machines than the Russians but they simply didn't have enough to meet thier needs I think really the russian cammanders did very little tactical thinking about what might happen to their men if they took some ation because of the blind faith and obidieance to Satlin They lead divions of I nfantry to massacare in minutes over and over and over and you get it and then finnally the Germans would give and retreat. They ground down the Germans with supriority in numbers.

Well KT you have included almost every myth propagated during the cold war about the Russians during WW2. The fact is the Russians were out producing and out fighting the Germans at almost every turn. Late war German equipment was, despite the huge fan base it has, over engineered crap. They had good guns and optics but that was it. The chassis and running gear were rubbish. I heard it summed up nicely once, on the eastern front the life expectancy of an AFV was approx 3-6 months, the Russians built tanks to last 10 months, the Germans built tanks to last 10 years.

Also, the Germans were better trained?? Tell me how the 13 and 14 year old boys were better trained? Or the 'Foot and Stomach' battalions? The fact is old men and boys were being sent to their slaughter by the German high command.

[Kurttis Thomas]

I said before 1945 thats 1941-1944 NOT 45 I DID BOT SAY 45 I aslo0 said that the Soviets were out producing the Germans in every way So you hae no room to talk there
Also I stronly believe this the russians were well trained but get this they couldn't apply it to human wave attacks I ask you this how do you apply training to this nonsense


This was not a German painting actually to let you know it was done by a Soviet Soldier
who wittnessed it from a building so now I ask you again HOW DO YOU APPLY TRAINIG TO THAT BLIND FAITH if you ask me also ever heard of this advance and you will problably die retreat and all of the high ranking commisars in the back will kill you for sure. I ASOS SAY AGAIN I SAID UP TO 1945 UP TO 1945 But look up if you can find anything the Hitler youth boys that fought in Berlin They were said ON MORE THAN ONE ACCOUNT BY SOVIET ND AMERICAN soldiers alike to be some of the most tough and skilled fighters they had ever faced. I AM NO NAZI BUT IF YOU SO MUCH AS QUSTION THOSE YOUNG BOYS FIGHTING ABILITYS THEN I SAY YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED BY HISTORIANS READ SOME OF THE ACCOUNTS OF THE SOLDIERS THAT FOUGHT AGAINST THE HJ YOU WILL SEE THEN THAT THEY CANNOT BE QUESTIONED ALSO IF YOU ARE SAYING THAT ANYONE IS TO BLAME FOR THE GERMAN FAILURES IN RUSSIA THAN I SAY ADOLF HITLER HE LOST THE WAR AT STALINGRAD AND AT KURSK BUT THE GERMAN SOLDIER STILL FOUGHT WELL IN THOSE BATTLES EVEN WITH A INSANE LEADER NOW LOOK AT THIS PICTURE TAKE A REALLY LONG GOOD LOOK AT THIS PICTURE ON THE VOLKSSTURM THREAD LOOK AT THE VERY LARGE PICTURE OF THE HITLER YOUTH BOYS LOOK AT THE TWO BOYS IN BLACK FACES TELL ME DOES THAT NOT SHOW YOU AT LEAST PRIDE IF THE HITLER YOUTH HAD ONLY ONE THING IT WAS PRIDE SO I ASK YOU WHAT DOES PRIDE MEAN I THINK IN THIER FACES IT SHOWS THAT THRY COULD HAVE CONTINUED TO FIGHT BUT THEY DIDN'T BECAUSE THEY WERE WITH OTHER OLDER GERMAN SOLDIERS WHO SURRENDRED AND SO THEY DID BUT IF YOU HAVE BEEN THOUGHTFULL ENOUGH TO LOOK GIVE ME A PM ANDTELL ME WHAT DO THOSE FACES MEAN TO YOU WHAT DO YOU SEE IN THEM I SEE NO FEAR IN THEM SO DO NOT EVER QUESTION THE YOUTH ABOUT THIER ABILITY TO FIGHT NOT EVER ALSO I HAVE A VERY GOOD FRIEND WHO WAS IN THE HITLER YOUTH AND WHEN I ASKED HIM IF HE HAD FOUGHT IN THE BATTLE OF BERLIN AND HE SAID YES GUESS WHAT ELSE HE SAID HE SAID THIS ITHAT HE WAS GIVIN A PANZEFAUST 60 AND A K98 WITH 3 CLIPS AND SENNT OUT TO FIGHT HE TOLD ME THAT HE KNOCKED OUT A SOVIET IS2 TANK WITH HIS PANZEFAUST AND THAT HE KILLED 7 RUSSIANS WITH HIS K98 AND DISSABLED A TRUCK NOW WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY I WANT TO HEAR A CRITIZISM TO THAT THAT IS BRAVNESS 3 CLIPS AND A PANZERFAUST A IS2 TANK AND 7 RUSSIANS AND DIISABLING A TRUCK ALL DONE BY ONE HITLER YOUTH BOY I ASK YOU NOW TO QUESTION THEM I MEAN NO DISSRESPECT BY THIS POST THIS IS A SUBJECT THAT I HAVE A VERY STRONG FEELING FOR BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN WARPED BY HISTORIANS READ PERSONEL ACCOUNTS OF THOSE WHO FOUGHT THEM AND YOU WILL SEE THAT THE HITLER YOUTH WERE SOME OF THE TOUGHEST FIGHERS OF THE WAR. MABYE THE HITLER YOUTH BOYS WENRT WELL TRAINED BUT THEY FOUGHT PRETTY D%&N HARD FOR 13 AND 14 YEAR OLDS DON'T YOU THINK. I MEAN NO DISSRESPECT WITH THIS POST THIS IS A SUBJECT I FEEL VERY STRONGLY OF THESE KIDS FOUGHT IN THREE VERY IMPORTANT BATTLES ON THE EASTERN FRONT AND THEY PROVED THEIR MEATTLE 100 TIMES OVER THINK ABOUT THAT 13 AND 14 YEARS OLD FIGHTING A WAR AND DOING A PRETTY D#$N GOOD JOB AT IT TOO THAT IS ALL I HAVE TO SAY ON THIS ISSUE.

[McCoy]

Please refrain from usin' Caps Lock! I repeat, DON'T CAPS yer text 'cos it's buggerin' hard on me eyes to read it n' I'm not the only one!

Plus try to keep it civil when there's disagreements...

[TRDG]

Yes please, lets keep this on the up and up here guys, there is some "truth" in both of your statements, but most of it is something in between here as to the Eastern front.

Wolster, I'm not to sure all German equipment was "junk", they had their issues though as we all know.....

Kurtis, some of your info is valid, but a lot of them was not "in general" what happened (like all the time), for every good commander, there were bad ones, be it a Co commader to Battalian and above.

You might want to read up a bit more on this, I suggest When Titans Clashed and The Battle of kursk, both by David Glandz. You also might want to find Tank Rider by Evgeni Bessonov and T-34 in Action by Artem Drabkin and Oleg Sheremet.
You will find all kinds of interesting things there, and they are fairly easy to get. Your local book store or Library should be able to get ahold of them.

Cheers, thanks for the interest in the topic gents!!

Tom

[Kurttis Thomas]

sorry I got a little upset about the 13 14 year olds thing I think I made it clear that I being a friend of one and seeing the reports from The russians I had to make it clear that altogh the HJ wernt well trained they did fight well.

[Wolster]

Kurttis, I made no comment on individual bravery. But I still refuse to believe that young boys thrown into battle are better trained than seasoned 'adult' troops. I also don't believe in human wave attacks in the period we are talking about. My only point was most of your comments seemed to be based on cold war prejudices.

At TRDG, you are correct of course, not all German kit was bad, some very good. I was generalising about AVFs rather than anything else.

[Kurttis Thomas]

But heres what I did say before the big one up until the last year of the war meaning 1944 after that I can agree with you but I did state up untill the last year of the war Meaning I wasn't including 1945 when the young boys were fighting. But I have to say this many of the adult troops they were thrown in with were old men from thier Volkssturm unit so many if not most of the adult men they were fighting beside were also not very seasoned. But then again units do get seperatedI still think they did a bloody good job for little boys imagine figghting a war at 13 scary.

[TRDG]

Thanks guys for "keeping it real" here!!

I think you have to look at the young age as to something vet troops might/would not do, so their is a surprise element there, and maybe no real fear of death for those just thrown into battle as well, not knowing what they are getting into as well I think. An idealistic youth can be very dangerous and give his all, maybe better than some of the "regular" forces by this time, you think?

There were human waves in the Eastern Front, but not as many as you might think, or be led to beleave, it did happen, but not on a regular basis throughout the war Kurttis.

Cheers

Tom

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Wolster

Well KT you have included almost every myth propagated during the cold war about the Russians during WW2. The fact is the Russians were out producing and out fighting the Germans at almost every turn. Late war German equipment was, despite the huge fan base it has, over engineered crap. They had good guns and optics but that was it. The chassis and running gear were rubbish. I heard it summed up nicely once, on the eastern front the life expectancy of an AFV was approx 3-6 months, the Russians built tanks to last 10 months, the Germans built tanks to last 10 years.

Also, the Germans were better trained?? Tell me how the 13 and 14 year old boys were better trained? Or the 'Foot and Stomach' battalions? The fact is old men and boys were being sent to their slaughter by the German high command.

Wolster, Wolster, Wolster. What issue of the Daily Worker did you read most of this history from?


The fact is the Russians were out producing and out fighting the Germans at almost every turn.

How many turns did it take them to out fight the Wehrmacht from Eastern Poland to the Volga?

Late war German equipment was, despite the huge fan base it has, over engineered crap.

Which managed to destroy under engineered Russian crap at an amazing ratio.


Also, the Germans were better trained??

They must have been. There are tons of photographs where two or three soldaten are herding hundreds of Soviet troops into captivity. They must have done a nice job because many of the Russians are smiling.


Well KT you have included almost every myth propagated during the cold war about the Russians during WW2.

Almost but not quite all. He missed the myth that Russian troops did not make massed suicide wave attacks, according to official Soviet sources, although there are plenty of witnesses to the contrary.

He missed the fact that if they did not they were shot in the back under the order of their own political officers, according by statements made by Russians captured in German service by the Allies, as they begged not to be returned to the Soviet Union after the war.

Which calls to mind the myth that "No Russian fought in German arms during Great Patriotic War". Something the Russian government even to this day denies despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Glass houses Wolster. They can be a bitch.