German railways admits complicity in Holocaust

[Jim O]

German railways today admitted the central role its Nazi-era predecessor played in the Holocaust, saying that without the cooperation of the network the systematic murder of millions of people could never have happened.

Launching its first ever touring exhibition about the Holocaust, the state rail company Deutsche Bahn (DB) said the tracks and freight of the Reichsbahn were integral to the Nazis' extermination plan.

"Without the Reichsbahn the industrial murder of millions of people would not have been possible," said DB's in-house historian, Susanne Kill.

Three million Jews and Roma - including around 1.5m children - were gathered from across Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe and transported on Reichsbahn railway tracks in cattle wagons to extermination camps.

The process involved carefully kept timetables, reliable contingents of drivers and precise coordination with the military that always had priority over the tracks.

Prisoners were even charged a fare for the journey, allowing the railways to earn millions of Reichsmarks from the death transports. Adults paid 4 pfennigs per kilometre, children 2 pfennigs, while those under the age of 4 travelled free. Trainloads of 400 or more, which amounted to massive overcrowding, received a 50% discount.

But the exhibition, Special Trains to Death, which has opened on Berlin's Potsdamer Platz and will move to railway stations around the country, has courted considerable controversy.

The head of DB, Hartmut Mehdorn, long resisted the idea of showing it at a working railway station, lest it "put off" commuters from using the trains.

He has also refused to allow a "Train of Memory" full of biographies of child Holocaust victims, which is due to reach Auschwitz concentration camp in May, to use its tracks unless it paid tens of thousands of euros.

Mr Mehdorn argued that the topic was better suited to a museum. But supporters said exhibiting it at a railway station would increase its impact and the numbers of people who saw it.

Today the transport minister, Wolfgang Tiefensee, who pushed for the station option despite resistance from within DB, told the Guardian: "I'm glad that people will be confronted with this topic in a public place on their way to or from work, because the question is still one for everyone, not just the railways to answer - how was it possible that people allowed such crimes to happen?"

Max Ansbacher from Würzburg recalled the fear, hunger and cold he felt when, at the age of 15, he was transported by windowless cattle wagon to Auschwitz in October 1944.

"The journey began in the dark," he said. "The wagon shunted backwards and forwards for ages, adding to our sense of insecurity ... people screamed and children and the sick cried constantly.

"We drank water from melting icicles ... we didn't know what Auschwitz was, we only knew it was where we were going. The farmers in the fields laughed at us when we asked them where it was and symbolically sliced their hands across their throats."

A large amount of documentation has helped historians detail the close cooperation between the Nazi regime and the railways which was necessary for the Holocaust to succeed.

In January 1943, Heinrich Himmler, who was head of the SS, the Nazi elite force, wrote to Albert Ganzenmüller, the secretary of state for transport and the deputy director of the Reichsbahn, pleading for more train stock.

"If I have any hope of quickly dealing with matters, I must have more haulage trains. Help me to get more," he said.

Ganzenmüller was the only member of the railways ever to go on trial for organising the deportations. But on his first day in court in 1973 he suffered a heart attack and was declared medically unfit.

Although he lived for a further 23 years, he never faced a further probe into his role.

Source: Guardian

[Klaus]

This is a little strange. But I can't quite put my finger on it.

[Tom Houlihan]

Originally Posted by Jim O

German railways today admitted the central role its Nazi-era predecessor played in the Holocaust, saying that without the cooperation of the network the systematic murder of millions of people could never have happened.

"Without the Reichsbahn the industrial murder of millions of people would not have been possible," said DB's in-house historian, Susanne Kill.

I understand organizations like the SS, but the Reichsbahn? So, is the DRK responsible, too? They healed men so they could go back and kill. How about the Electric and Water companies? They kept the lights on the the Kanzlei so that Hitler and his cronies could plan the war. Maybe if the Reichs Sewage Dienst had let things back up in Berlin, Hitler would have had other things on his mind.

Can't forget the weather service! They aided planning, too. Oh, and the lumber mills. If they hadn't sold material to Eicke, the camps wouldn't have been built.

As I posted elsewhere tonight, the people of Germany need to tell the rest of the world to ferk orf. It happened. We all know it happened. But none of the instigators are around anymore. All that are left are those who at the time were to young to have been able to comprehend, let alone influence what was going on around them.

The people living in Germany today for the most part weren't even born! They bear no responsibility! That's like me taking responsibility for the Slave Trade, for Heaven's sake!

Deutschland, stand up, and ignore everyone else. Do what you have to do to move yourselves ahead. Stop falling for this bullsh*t everyone else is handing you. It's an international guilt trip, and you're allowing it to continue!

[Jim O]

Tom,

I agree with much of what you said, but one has to decide whether the wholesale genocide of millions of people who were outside of the war zone was part of the war effort, or was it a social policy in which those who participated are guilty. Most of the Jews and Roma who went on the trains came from western Europe, Germany proper and central Europe, the General Government, and southern Europe. Those further east, as you well know, were murdered on the site by the Einsatzgruppen and locals. Did the railways transport men and matériel to the battlefields? Of course they did. For that they bear no more responsibility than the manufacturers of armaments, trucks, uniforms and so forth. Transporting human beings in cattle cars to their certain death, and charging a fare for it, is a different story. No single "person" may hold that responsibility today, for the reasons that you mentioned, but companies who benefited from and participated in the Holocaust retain responsibility until that debt has been paid in one fashion or another. If that is in the form of an admission and apology from the railways, or restitution from banks and insurance companies that stole money from the murdered and the displaced, it is never too late.

Neither you nor I participated in the slave trade and we have no responsibility for it. Heck, the earliest of my ancestors to come to this country came shortly after the Civil War. Nevertheless, my country still has that tainted history that can never be erased.

Just my thoughts and opinion of course.

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Tom Houlihan

I understand organizations like the SS, but the Reichsbahn? So, is the DRK responsible, too? They healed men so they could go back and kill. How about the Electric and Water companies? They kept the lights on the the Kanzlei so that Hitler and his cronies could plan the war. Maybe if the Reichs Sewage Dienst had let things back up in Berlin, Hitler would have had other things on his mind.

Can't forget the weather service! They aided planning, too. Oh, and the lumber mills. If they hadn't sold material to Eicke, the camps wouldn't have been built.

As I posted elsewhere tonight, the people of Germany need to tell the rest of the world to ferk orf. It happened. We all know it happened. But none of the instigators are around anymore. All that are left are those who at the time were to young to have been able to comprehend, let alone influence what was going on around them.

The people living in Germany today for the most part weren't even born! They bear no responsibility! That's like me taking responsibility for the Slave Trade, for Heaven's sake!

Deutschland, stand up, and ignore everyone else. Do what you have to do to move yourselves ahead. Stop falling for this bullsh*t everyone else is handing you. It's an international guilt trip, and you're allowing it to continue!

Wow, Tom, a very powerful and enlightened post and as a German born American, I thank you. I do think, however, that your take on contemporary Germans "allowing" the international guilt trip to continue is a bit off mark.

For the most part, we have very little choice.

Whatever pride we may feel for those who in that time and place fought, sacrificed and struggled against such odds, has to be tempered by the fact that their efforts were linked to one of the most evil regimes in history.

The fact that many fought hard and with honor for their people, their country and the kameraden beside them has been for decades rendered irrelevant by the court of world opinion.

For this reason the swastika, I fear, is a cross we of German blood will have to bear for generations yet to come. Guilty by association is still, in the eye of the simple mind, guilt just the same.

I know this to be true because I have seen it.

My father survived things that should have killed him five times over. He came to this country for a fresh start. He worked hard and became a citizen. A far better citizen, in my opinion, than many born here that I see roaming the streets today. Yet he was still snickered at behind his back by those who believed "Hogan's Hero's" was a documentary and on at least one occasion I can remember him being called a nazi by a "neighbor".
When I tried to defend him, my father brought me into the house and said, "With this trouble, better not we make things worse."

As a youngster I had more than my share of fights after making the mistake of speaking candidly about my family background. And when as kids we played war, guess who was always one of the "bad guys".

When my daughter was in junior high she came home one afternoon with a suspension notice for using foul language with a teacher. When my wife and I demanded to know why she broke into tears.
She said as part of a class project on World War II those who had family who served in the war stood up and gave a brief oratory on who and where. The teacher then informed our daughter that even though her Opa was in a tank during the war, he was just as responsible for the deaths of millions as the men who poured poison gas through the vents of showers on the concentration camps.
The following morning my daughter and I both went to her school and after tearing the principal a new one, I told the history teacher there were no hangman's nooses in my family tree, but if he ever spoke that way about my father to his granddaughter again, he would be our first.
She was re-instated with a full apology.

It is an easy thing for me to "stand up", Tom. I was raised in a country that gives me the right to speak my mind. I was not born into a dictatorship. I was not raised under occupation. I don't have the fear of, "With this trouble, better not we make things worse."

I think for many Germans national pride is still a minefield. If one speaks of it loudly there is a label of nationalist. Which in itself is not a bad thing. Except when some other nations speak of German Nationalism, you can almost hear a shutter.
If one beats on his chest, then they run the risk of being called a neo.

No, not every German living in the Third Reich was a nazi. Not every German in uniform was Einsatzgruppen. Yes the Holocaust did happen and yes, there was blood on some German hands. But not all, and not now.

The point is Germany will not be able to move ahead until the rest of the world is ready to put the past in its proper place, and begin to see Germans outside the genre of comic books, B movies and "Victor's Histories".

A slow transformation that has already started.

In recent years three German made motion pictures about the war have been released and widely embraced by people of other countries. "Stalingrad", "Downfall" and "As far As My Feet Will Carry Me". All three draw distinct lines between the nazi, and the common German solider. All three have put a human face under the brim of the stalhelm.

There are a number of videos that can be accessed on of all things, Youtube, where contemporary songs sing tribute to the common German Soldier, and given positive feedback from viewers the world over.

Right now, forums such as this discuss such issues to achieve a better understanding of history and each other, and all before an international audience.

Maybe some day I'll have a grandchild who will stand up in history class, give a recital on his or her great-grandpa, and come home with an "A".

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Jim O

Tom,

I agree with much of what you said, but one has to decide whether the wholesale genocide of millions of people who were outside of the war zone was part of the war effort, or was it a social policy in which those who participated are guilty. Most of the Jews and Roma who went on the trains came from western Europe, Germany proper and central Europe, the General Government, and southern Europe. Those further east, as you well know, were murdered on the site by the Einsatzgruppen and locals. Did the railways transport men and matériel to the battlefields? Of course they did. For that they bear no more responsibility than the manufacturers of armaments, trucks, uniforms and so forth. Transporting human beings in cattle cars to their certain death, and charging a fare for it, is a different story. No single "person" may hold that responsibility today, for the reasons that you mentioned, but companies who benefited from and participated in the Holocaust retain responsibility until that debt has been paid in one fashion or another. If that is in the form of an admission and apology from the railways, or restitution from banks and insurance companies that stole money from the murdered and the displaced, it is never too late.

Just my thoughts and opinion of course.

Agreed Jim. Any German company still in business today that played a role with full knowledge as to the fate of those being transported, and profited either through payment by the regime or by the theft of the victims assets, should offer both a moral apology and financial restitution.

These actions were not a matter of war, but rather of murder and extortion of non-combatants.

[Klaus]

Only thing I wonder is why the came up with this just now. There was no discussion about it at all.

Don't get me wrong but I am sick of it paying for something I never did, to people at my age who never suffered. Reperations are all right with me, but just to the real victims. And not to their ancestors (hope I wrote that right).

When you go to school in Austria you are breast fed with the guilt trip. Ok...I'll stop now. Or I can't quit anymore.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Klaus

Only thing I wonder is why the came up with this just now. there was no discussion about it at all.

Don't get me wrong but I am sick of it paying for something I never did, to people at my age who never suffered. Reperations are all right with me, but just to the real victims. And not to their ancestors (hope I wrote that right).

When you go to school in Austria you are breast fed with the guilt trip. Ok...I'll stop know. Or I can't quit anymore.

I'm sure that there were discussions Klaus, perhaps not public. If I read this correctly, it was just an admission of complicity, no more. No reparations involved.

[Klaus]

Yeah, I know. I guess it is just a matter of time till the first great-garanddaughteers/sons make their move.

[razorboy]

Originally Posted by Tom Houlihan

I understand organizations like the SS, but the Reichsbahn? So, is the DRK responsible, too? They healed men so they could go back and kill. How about the Electric and Water companies? They kept the lights on the the Kanzlei so that Hitler and his cronies could plan the war. Maybe if the Reichs Sewage Dienst had let things back up in Berlin, Hitler would have had other things on his mind.

Can't forget the weather service! They aided planning, too. Oh, and the lumber mills. If they hadn't sold material to Eicke, the camps wouldn't have been built.

As I posted elsewhere tonight, the people of Germany need to tell the rest of the world to ferk orf. It happened. We all know it happened. But none of the instigators are around anymore. All that are left are those who at the time were to young to have been able to comprehend, let alone influence what was going on around them.

The people living in Germany today for the most part weren't even born! They bear no responsibility! That's like me taking responsibility for the Slave Trade, for Heaven's sake!

Deutschland, stand up, and ignore everyone else. Do what you have to do to move yourselves ahead. Stop falling for this bullsh*t everyone else is handing you. It's an international guilt trip, and you're allowing it to continue!

I agree Tom,
I had no less than 20 ancestors in Confederate service during the War, none owned any slaves. As a matter of fact there were more registered as slave owner enlisted in Union ranks than in Confederate ranks. Slavery existed for a little over 4 years under the "Stars and Bars" but flourished for over 80 years under the "Stars and Stripes". Moral to the story? The loser of any conflict is usually wrong.....I never planted any cotton....but I do have a Southern accent and I pay for it every day.
I feel you fellas,

raazorboy