[Holly6]

The Confederate Army fought under many banners. Two in particular became the major symbols of their cause. History has led to confusion between these two ensigns: "The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia" and "The Confederate Flag".

 confederate-flags[1].jpg (44.24K)
Number of downloads: 52.jpg]

The idea for this thread originated from a discussion about the historical development of the Balkenkreuz and the Swastika. Those of you familiar with the evolution of these WWII signatures, might be surprised at the original consideration given the Southern flags during the War. "The Confederate Flag" might be unfamiliar to those that are new to the Civil War, "The Battle Flag" is probably now known World Wide as representing extreme racial beliefs.

The following link provides an excellent overview of how both flags evolved into symbols of:

1. An honored fighting foe
2. The government for which he fought.

I would invite you to pay particular attention to the respect given the C.B.F. in the Northern printed "Harper's Ferry" cover published in 1864.

Again, I am no way attempting to equate the two wars or their philosophies. This is just an academic, and I hope interesting, look at the historic matriculation of symbols.

Confederate Flag

[cyberia]

Excellent thread concept and link Hal.

[Wustenfuchs]

What a great post! Thanks Hal.

[Airchallenged]

I'll follow that up by posting the other two versions of the Stars and Bars (National Flag). The first was dropped after it became apparent that it looked to close to the US flag when in battle:


The Second version of the National Flag. This one was dropped for an obvious reason. On a calm day this flag would appear to be the "retreat" flag, which was solid white at this time.


Third National Flag. Adopted at the very end of the war in March, '65.

And I will now state the fact that I have a 3x3 Confederate Battle flag hanging in my room at home. Right next to the Canes flag and the 101st AB flag.

Some of you know that I am a confederate reenactor and this is a matter that I take personally. For me, and for about 95% or more of all reenactors, the events are a way to honor those that fought and to keep their memories alive. This is the same as the Battle Flag. On a few occasions I have been asked by spectators why I am a Confederate, or something similar, and the safest response I can give is because I live in the south and all units are location specific (on the East Coast at least).

On a side note. My neighbor has the First National and, according to my dad, had it flying for Veterans Day. He felt it was safer to fly the less known flag instead of the Battle Flag.

Now to await Rich's reply.

[Biscuit]

Good stuff Hal! I hang three flags on my walls: Texas flag, US flag, and the Stars and Bars. I like the Battle Flag, but don't want to be called a racist either.

[Holly6]

This page is part of © FOTW Flags Of The World website
South Carolina Secession Flags (U.S.)

The Original Secession Flag
S.C. Sovereignty Flag



 us-sc[1].gif (4.03K)
Number of downloads: 46.gif]


The Original Secession Flag
image by Mario Fabretto, 24 February 1998

Though the South Carolina state flag harkens back to the crescent worn by her troops in the American Revolution, and the palmetto tree is a reminder of the palmetto logs that stopped British cannon balls in the bombardment of Ft. Moultrie during the same war, it is still very much a Confederate flag for its current incarnation.

While the flag in some variation was adopted under the South Carolina Militia Act of 1838, the flag as shown today was not officially adopted as the state flag until January, 1861. Then it was the flag of the seceded Republic of South Carolina - the first of the states to leave the Union.

As such, it is indeed every bit as much a Confederate flag as any other pattern of Confederate flag (and there were many). In fact, the palmetto flag, as it became called at the time, was far more the symbol of secession for the South than the more famous Bonnie Blue flag - that gets far more publicity than it deserves based on an examination of the newspapers of the time (but it did have the song). I have found FAR more mentions of palmetto flags being hoisted all over the South (as well as out West and in the North) as symbols of secession than the lone star/Bonnie Blue flags.

South Carolina troops also fought under their state flag -the state providing flags to the first ten regiments raised for its defense. Other palmetto flags were issued to local military companies as well which saw early combat use.

The palmetto flag of South Carolina is, therefore, a Confederate battle flag, just like those that were created to be as such during the war by the various CSA commanders.

Greg Biggs, 19 January 2000


 us-sc860[1].gif (3.04K)
Number of downloads: 46.gif]

S.C. Sovereignty Flag
image by Christopher Johnson, 29 April 1999

This is a version of an early flag raised over South Carolina shortly after its secession from the Union in 1860(it was also supposed to have been raised over Yale University by sympathizers). It was called the South Carolina Sovereignty Flag and was supposed to have been an inspiration for the Confederate flag in its later form.
Christopher Johnson, 29 April 1999

[Panzermacher]

The Bonnie Blue Flag has a unique Southern Heritage of its own both in origin and symbolism. It all started in September 1810 in the Republic of West Florida, which included parts of the present day states of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. At this time the Republic of West Florida was flying a flag which used a single, white, five pointed star on a field of blue which symbolized fellowship. During this time the US government was encouraging the American landowners in this republic too rebel against Spain who had control over this frontier area, thus making it a symbol of rebelling. Well, we all know what happened to this republic on the frontier, much like another republic a few years later that took up the lone star and won her own independence. That's right, the Republic of Texas.

In February of 1861, several southern states that had seceded from the Union met in Montgomery, Alabama and formed the Confederate States of America. That day Jefferson Davis was elected President and at the convention a large flag with a single white star on a field of blue was raised as both a symbol of fellowship amongst the seceding states and rebellion against the Union. Upon the unfurling of this flag a preceding officer waved it with the exclamation, "The Bonnie Blue," which was followed by a shout from the other delegates and citizens in the audience of "Hurrah, for the Bonnie Blue Flag". In the audience, Harry McCarthy, a traveling showman, who was so inspired by the thrilling moment that he wrote the rousing song "The Bonnie Blue Flag." Soon an official flag (the Stars and Bars) was adopted for the Confederacy however the Bonnie Blue, though never officially adopted, remained popular throughout and after the war because of the song. The stirring marching song was extremely popular in the South, rivaling "Dixie" as the unofficial Confederate anthem. Union General Benjamin "Beast" Butler, in Federal occupied New Orleans, outlawed playing the music or singing the song. Eleven varied editions of the song had been printed before the end of the war.

The Bonnie Blue Flag was popular among the Confederate veterans after the war. There are countless articles listed in the old issues of "The Confederate Veteran", of United Confederate Veteran camps being presented with the flag by townspeople, etc. Many Sons fly the Bonnie Blue today just as our ancestors did -- a symbol of fellowship to family, friend, and acquaintances and a symbol of rebellion to those who choose to deny us of our proud heritage.



I Knew you Yankees would ferget the BONNIE BLUE!!!!

Attached File(s)

•  BONNIEBLUE.GIF (8.55K)
  Number of downloads: 41

[Holly6]

Airchallenged said:

I'll follow that up by posting the other two versions of the Stars and Bars (National Flag). The first was dropped after it became apparent that it looked to close to the US flag when in battle:


The Second version of the National Flag. This one was dropped for an obvious reason. On a calm day this flag would appear to be the "retreat" flag, which was solid white at this time.


Third National Flag. Adopted at the very end of the war in March, '65.

And I will now state the fact that I have a 3x3 Confederate Battle flag hanging in my room at home. Right next to the Canes flag and the 101st AB flag.

Some of you know that I am a confederate reenactor and this is a matter that I take personally. For me, and for about 95% or more of all reenactors, the events are a way to honor those that fought and to keep their memories alive. This is the same as the Battle Flag. On a few occasions I have been asked by spectators why I am a Confederate, or something similar, and the safest response I can give is because I live in the south and all units are location specific (on the East Coast at least).

On a side note. My neighbor has the First National and, according to my dad, had it flying for Veterans Day. He felt it was safer to fly the less known flag instead of the Battle Flag.

Now to await Rich's reply.

Thanks AC. That was my follow-up post.
I used to have a display of the 7 flags that have flown Charleston South Carolina in my classroom. Took them out a few years ago and brought them home. Times change. I would hope that the 1st National Flag flew without problem.

[Holly6]

Panzermacher said:

I Knew you Yankees would ferget the BONNIE BLUE!!!!

Naw, we Blue Backs were just taking 'em in order after the first post.

[Airchallenged]

Who you calling a Yankee?!

How can you forget the Bonnie Blue Song when it has its own great song?starts humming "Bonnie Blue Flag"...

[Panzermacher]

Holly6 said:

Panzermacher said:

I Knew you Yankees would ferget the BONNIE BLUE!!!!

Naw, we Blue Backs were just taking 'em in order after the first post.

Better check yer order again....the Bonnie came first... and Yep AI I do Like that song.....

[Holly6]

Panzermacher said:

Better check yer order again....the Bonnie came first...

Quick double-check:

While the flag in some variation was adopted under the South Carolina Militia Act of 1838, the flag as shown today was not officially adopted as the state flag until January, 1861. Then it was the flag of the seceded Republic of South Carolina - the first of the states to leave the Union.

As such, it is indeed every bit as much a Confederate flag as any other pattern of Confederate flag (and there were many). In fact, the palmetto flag, as it became called at the time, was far more the symbol of secession for the South than the more famous Bonnie Blue flag - that gets far more publicity than it deserves based on an examination of the newspapers of the time (but it did have the song). I have found FAR more mentions of palmetto flags being hoisted all over the South (as well as out West and in the North) as symbols of secession than the lone star/Bonnie Blue flags.

SC Sovereignty Flag
This is a version of an early flag raised over South Carolina shortly after its secession from the Union in 1860(it was also supposed to have been raised over Yale University by sympathizers). It was called the South Carolina Sovereignty Flag and was supposed to have been an inspiration for the Confederate flag in its later form.

Confederate Flag

Confederate Flags (U.S.)

Your Post:
In February of 1861, several southern states that had seceded from the Union met in Montgomery, Alabama and formed the Confederate States of America. That day Jefferson Davis was elected President and at the convention a large flag with a single white star on a field of blue was raised as both a symbol of fellowship amongst the seceding states and rebellion against the Union. Upon the unfurling of this flag a preceding officer waved it with the exclamation, "The Bonnie Blue," which was followed by a shout from the other delegates and citizens in the audience of "Hurrah, for the Bonnie Blue Flag". In the audience, Harry McCarthy, a traveling showman, who was so inspired by the thrilling moment that he wrote the rousing song "The Bonnie Blue Flag."

It would seem both SC Flags would preceed the Bonnie Blue in their involvement vis-a-vis the War of Northern Agression. However, I wll grant that both of my sources are Confederate based and we all know that they can include faulty information.

This post has been edited by Holly6: December 04, 2008 - 07:36 PM

[Geek44]

I've seen both but am only familiar with the meaning of one. Thanks Hal.
Peace.

[Geek44]

Following a PM from Holly6, here's the Australian equivalent...our 'flag of rebellion' if you will.

 Eureka Flag.jpg (2.15K)
Number of downloads: 30
The Eureka Flag

 Eureka Flag 2.jpg (2.98K)
Number of downloads: 30
The original flag flown at the 'Eureka Stockade'

A bit off topic but I described events to Holly in a PM and felt this was the best place for it. I don't even know if it's possible to add pics to a PM.
Peace.

[Panzermacher]

Holly6 said:

Panzermacher said:

Better check yer order again....the Bonnie came first...

Quick double-check:

While the flag in some variation was adopted under the South Carolina Militia Act of 1838, the flag as shown today was not officially adopted as the state flag until January, 1861. Then it was the flag of the seceded Republic of South Carolina - the first of the states to leave the Union.

As such, it is indeed every bit as much a Confederate flag as any other pattern of Confederate flag (and there were many). In fact, the palmetto flag, as it became called at the time, was far more the symbol of secession for the South than the more famous Bonnie Blue flag - that gets far more publicity than it deserves based on an examination of the newspapers of the time (but it did have the song). I have found FAR more mentions of palmetto flags being hoisted all over the South (as well as out West and in the North) as symbols of secession than the lone star/Bonnie Blue flags.

SC Sovereignty Flag
This is a version of an early flag raised over South Carolina shortly after its secession from the Union in 1860(it was also supposed to have been raised over Yale University by sympathizers). It was called the South Carolina Sovereignty Flag and was supposed to have been an inspiration for the Confederate flag in its later form.

Confederate Flag

Confederate Flags (U.S.)

Your Post:
In February of 1861, several southern states that had seceded from the Union met in Montgomery, Alabama and formed the Confederate States of America. That day Jefferson Davis was elected President and at the convention a large flag with a single white star on a field of blue was raised as both a symbol of fellowship amongst the seceding states and rebellion against the Union. Upon the unfurling of this flag a preceding officer waved it with the exclamation, "The Bonnie Blue," which was followed by a shout from the other delegates and citizens in the audience of "Hurrah, for the Bonnie Blue Flag". In the audience, Harry McCarthy, a traveling showman, who was so inspired by the thrilling moment that he wrote the rousing song "The Bonnie Blue Flag."

It would seem both SC Flags would preceed the Bonnie Blue in their involvement vis-a-vis the War of Northern Agression. However, I wll grant that both of my sources are Confederate based and we all know that they can include faulty information.

Ok I see where this is going....but a CONFEDERACY cannot be one state.....

"In February of 1861, several southern states that had seceded from the Union met in Montgomery, Alabama and formed the Confederate States of America. " (Not the Confederate State of Noble South Carolina!) Sorry AI, I do not want to Steal your Brave state's Thunder.....But, the Bonnie Blue was the first "Confederate" Flag. The Palmetto was the first Secessionist Flag, as Noble South Carolina boldly took her stand in January, 1861.

The Bonnie Blue saw action with Many brigades at First Manassas, Some units carried the Bonnie a little longer until the "First National" was adopted. (Rumor had it that some units confused the blue of the Bonnie with the blue of Battalion/brigade Guidon flags, which caused some major problems when adjusting battle lines!)
It's them Yankee facts what are all messed up.....:rofl2:

This post has been edited by Panzermacher: December 04, 2008 - 09:01 PM

[Airchallenged]

Panzermacher said:

Sorry AI, I do not want to Steal your Brave state's Thunder.

Uhhhh.....I'm from North Carolina. We were last (Tennessee doesn't count because they took so long to make it official). We were the first at Bethel though, first to lose a Confederate soldier in Battle, Made the furthest Charge at Gettysburg, and were the last to surrender at Appomattox.

[Holly6]

Airchallenged said:

Panzermacher said:

Sorry AI, I do not want to Steal your Brave state's Thunder.

Uhhhh.....I'm from North Carolina. We were last (Tennessee doesn't count because they took so long to make it official). We were the first at Bethel though, first to lose a Confederate soldier in Battle, Made the furthest Charge at Gettysburg, and were the last to surrender at Appomattox.

The Tarheels truly deserve their fame. AC, any idea how they got the nickname?

[Panzermacher]

Airchallenged said:

Panzermacher said:

Sorry AI, I do not want to Steal your Brave state's Thunder.

Uhhhh.....I'm from North Carolina. We were last (Tennessee doesn't count because they took so long to make it official). We were the first at Bethel though, first to lose a Confederate soldier in Battle, Made the furthest Charge at Gettysburg, and were the last to surrender at Appomattox.

OOPPPSSSS!!! My bad! I thought you Hailed from South Carolina.

[Panzermacher]

Holly6 said:

Airchallenged said:

Panzermacher said:

Sorry AI, I do not want to Steal your Brave state's Thunder.

Uhhhh.....I'm from North Carolina. We were last (Tennessee doesn't count because they took so long to make it official). We were the first at Bethel though, first to lose a Confederate soldier in Battle, Made the furthest Charge at Gettysburg, and were the last to surrender at Appomattox.

The Tarheels truly deserve their fame. AC, any idea how they got the nickname?

I heard that story once, but can't recall it so if Air Knows, I hope he shares.

(Here we go...off topic AGAIN)

[Airchallenged]

Here is what I found online:

Quote

In Colonial days, North Carolina was a big producer of tar, pitch and turpentine.

During one of the fiercest conflicts of the Civil War, North Carolina troops felt they had been let down by a regiment carrying the colors of another state, and thus carried chips on their shoulders when they pulled back from the front after the battle.

"Any more tar down in the Old North State, boys?" members of the other regiments taunted the battle-weary North Carolinians.

"Not a bit. Jeff Davis bought it all up," retorted the Carolinians.

"How's that, what's he going to do with it?"

"He's gonna put it on your heels to make you stick better in the next fight," answered the soldiers from the land of tar, pitch and turpentine.

Gerneral Lee, hearing of the incident, remarked: "God Bless the Tar Heel Boys."

The nickname stuck.