[TRDG]

Many have read or at least heard of these battles, and I have always wanted to start one off here at The Zone for our very own, so here it is.
I only have a couple pics so I will hold off until I can find some more, but feel free to add the ones you have if you want.

There are 3 specific engagements in and around the town of Villers-Bocade and they are.

1. The famous Wittmann and his single Tiger from the 101st Heavy Tank Battalion taking on the British 7th Armoured Division (Desert Rats), specifically A Company, 1st BN, Rifle brigade ("Motorized" Platoons and an AT Platoon as well). 4th Troop, A Squadron, 4th County of London Yeomanry (Cromwell IV and Firefly VC tanks) and Recce Troop, 4th County of London Yeomanry again (Stuart V tanks).

2. The Battle of Point 213 where the remaining 4 Tigers from Wittmann's Heavy Tiger Company (as ordered to do by Wittmann just before his single handed attack with his tank began). Facing further advancing British units, specifically the 4th County Yeomanry of A Squadron 4CLY (Cromwell IV, CS IV Cromwell and Firefly tanks) and O group, A Company, 1st Battalion of The Rifle Brigade (Infrantry in M5 half-tracks).


3. And finally the actual battle in the town itself after the other two battles were finished. A mixed force for the Germans, we are looking at elements of the 1. Company, 101. s SS-PZABT with Oberstrmführer Möbius Commanding 8 Tiger tanks. And the commander, Major Helmut Ritgen, getting together a scratch built Infrantry force to tag along Elements of the Panzer Lehr Division consisting of 15 Panzer IV H tanks to build a nice "little" LOL Kampfgruppe of their own to seal off exits from Villers-Bocade from the hopefully soon to be fleeing Deset Rats.... Who consist of B Company,1/7th Queen's ( Rifle Platoons and a 6 Pound AT gun Platoon), Battery B, 5th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment. Then B Squadron, 4th CLY (Cromwell IV, VI CS and Firefly VC tanks) that will be ready and waiting for the German attack on the town.

[TRDG]

Now the point of this thread is to get at all the details as best as we can find them, NOT arguing the "numbers", a small debate might be interesting, but please keep it VERY reasonable for everyone here.

I ahve looked through some sites and books and there do seem to be some questions that are still in play today, thus the friendly reminder to "play nice" here.

I know the basics of these battles but I am interested in knowing more about them. This was sort of spawned from a game related project of mine and some of the info I can't really get a grip on, for example......

Battle 1. Wittmanns' Single Tiger atack

Were the British actually brewing up tea and having breakfast/lunch when Wittmann and his single Tiger attacked olong the road to Villers? It does seem that the Desert Rats were taken by complete surprise, some even out of their vehicles it seems. Recon was not out and about, but in the halted column I beleave, the Stuart V tanks.

Battle 2. Point 213

Here again I do wonder how this battle was fought, were the British on hill 213 or on its way there on the road?
Then did the 4 Tigers attack the British from a dirt road near the paved highway. While the commanders and crews were also out of their tanks and having an orders briefing at the time with/by Ltn Col. Lord Cranley by his Daimler Dingo Scout car?
Were the 4 Tigers ever joined by other German forces before they defeated the British, or after the 4 Tigers did it themselves?

Battle 3. The town battle (2) without Wittmann

The British drove back the German attack, but was it a lack of reserves that made them The Commanders in town or maybe the Generals behind the front line) pull out in "fear" of even heavier German armoured attacks? Maybe something the airforce could deal with in the future, as they did pound it to bits later on in the month before it fell??

I'm not to sure how accurate this all is (I'm no scholor as you know!!!), but it should be fun and fairly educational to see what other members think of these battles, and hopefully
a few of my many questions.
No worries if you don't have a specific reply, but lets go battle by battle if possible, just say for battle 1, I think/know/wonder post info, battle 2 and 3 along the same lines as well if you are so inclined. Links are OK here to post but please clarify what is in them as to being true or something to take a closer look at, books as well I think to.

Cheers guys, lets do this one justice for the benefit of our many members here besides me.

Tom

[LAH 1 SS]

As you have pointed out TRDG this battle has been exmained and argued over alot on many forums hopefully this forum will be able to clarify and tie all the arguments together and be the definitive source for this battle. Lets post away and as stated "play nice". If it is ok with you TRDG and the moderators can assosciated photos be posted in the thread?

[cyberia]

LAH, I think any photos that can illustrate points would be fine. If fact if there are any photos already posted in the armor threads that might help here feel free to pull them and re-post.

[PanzerBob]

I always find the biggest problem in discussing this battle, is whose stories are to believed. And lastly how much it there we will never know?

However, I do have an idea, if we could drum up enough information and had someone who could plot it out, on a map or model, maybe it could show things that verbal fencing can't. Just a thought.


Bob out

[LAH 1 SS]

Ok the lets get the photos under way then shall we they are a little over the place sorry

one of the roads leading into VB


destroyed british armour



tiger 112 in VB burnt out



Tiger 222 towing 231 after the battle for VB form hill 213



A burnt out tiger one

This post has been edited by LAH 1 SS: December 03, 2008 - 06:01 PM

[LAH 1 SS]

Here is some maps of VB and the surounding area's




aknowledgement to appropriate resources

This post has been edited by LAH 1 SS: December 03, 2008 - 04:06 PM

[LAH 1 SS]

Here is a photo of the panzer 4 634 of Panzer lehr

[LAH 1 SS]

Here are some wrecked british vehicles from the battle for VB



a 4th CLY Honey


a Cromwell of OP tank CP 5RHA


A Destroyed Cromwell

[TRDG]

Thank you kindly LAH

here is Villers after the Allies bombed it out, a "bit" it looks like, don't ya think? LOL



Cheers, anyone else here with some pics on these battles, or info related to it? You can almost make out some of the destroyed tanks right near the upper middle center of the town still to.

Tom:coffee:

[PanzerBob]

TRDG said:

Thank you kindly LAH

here is Villers after the Allies bombed it out, a "bit" it looks like, don't ya think? LOL



Cheers, anyone else here with some pics on these battles, or info related to it? You can almost make out some of the destroyed tanks right near the upper middle center of the town still to.

Tom:coffee:

Looks like someone forgot to put up the yellow tape preserveing the site for Zone CSI. This is one aspect I was not aware of!!!

Bob out:emperor:

[TRDG]

COOL, I "caught" a Zoner here with something new, and PanzerBob of all people!!!

OK, I think I will start out with the first battle and post what I know of the the Wittmann Tiger ride, then anyone can chime in and correct me or add their own info compared to what I have posted.

Cheers, I start this up fairly soon I think!!

Tom

[Hagen]

"Submission for the awarding of the Oak Leaves with Swords to the Knights Cross

Generalkommando I.SS-Panzerkorps

SS-Obersturmführer Wittmann recieved orders on June 12th to secure the left flank of the Korps near Villers-Bocage. It was to be expected that the English tank forces that had broken through would advance to the south and southeast.

Wittmann arrived at the exact time as ordered with six PanzerVI's.

During the night of June 12 to 13 1944, extremely heavy artillery fire forced Wittmanns company to change positions three times. In the early morning hours the company stood at Point 213 north of Villers-Bocage with five Panzer VI's ready for action.

At 8 A.M. a sentry reported to SS-Obersturmführer Wittmann that a strong column of enemy tanks was marching on the road Caen, Villers-Bocage.

Wittmann, sitting in cover 200 meters south of the road with his Tiger, recognized an English tank unit followed by an English armored personnel carrier battalion.

The situation required the fastest possible action. Wittmann did not have time to issue orders to his men in the distant positions. Instead, he pushed immediately, firing on the move, with his Panzer into the English column. This quick action initially broke up the enemy column. Wittmann destroyed four Sherman tanks from eighty meters, then moved his Tiger into and parallel to the column, and drove along the column at ten to thirty meters, firing in the direction of the march. He was able, in a very short time period, to knock out fifteen heavy enemy tanks. Another six tanks were hit, and their crews forced to bail out. The accompanying battalion in armored cars was almost completely destroyed.

The other four Panzers of the Wittmann company, following behind, took some 230 prisoners. Wittmann pushed ahead, while well in front of his company, into the town of Villers-Bocage. In the center of town his Panzer was immobilized by heavy enemy Pak. Despite this, he destroyed all vehicles within reach and routed the enemy unit. Thereafter, Wittmann and his crew bailed out and made their way on foot some fifteen kilometers to the north to the Panzer-Lehr Division. There he reported to the Ia, turned around with fifteen Panzer IV's of the Panzer-Lehr Division, and pushed again towards Villers-Bocage. he was able to reach the 1 Company, deployed along the main road to Villers-Bocage, in his schwimmwagen, which had since been brought forward again, Based on his knowledge of the battle and situation, he used the company to attack the enemy who was still in the town with tanks and Pak's.

By his determined actions with his Panzer, Wittmann single-handedly destroyed the enemy, the English 22 Armored Brigade, which was already well to the rear of our own front. His immediate decision, carried out with great personal valor, averted a critical danger to the whole of the front of the I. SS-Panzerkorps. At that time, the Korps did not have any other reserves available.

With the count of today, Wittmann has achieved a total number of victories over 138 enemy tanks and 132 enemy Pak's with his Panzer."

This is how Sepp Dietrich wrote up Wittmanns action at Villers-Bocage for the awarding of the Swords to the Oak Leaves.

My source for this is from the book "Armor Battles of the Waffen-SS" by Will Fey. Will Fey was himself a Tiger commander in Heavy Panzer Battalion 101 and a winner of the Knights Cross.

This post has been edited by Hagen: December 14, 2008 - 07:05 PM

[redcoat]

Hagen said:

"Submission for the awarding of the Oak Leaves with Swords to the Knights Cross

.He was able, in a very short time period, to knock out fifteen heavy enemy tanks. Another six tanks were hit, and their crews forced to bail out. The accompanying battalion in armored cars was almost completely destroyed.

.

The maximum number of tanks Wittmann could have destroyed was 10, 3 Stuarts, 5 Cromwells, 1 Sherman OP, 1 Cromwell OP ( both OP tanks had no main gun)

This post has been edited by redcoat: December 14, 2008 - 05:13 PM

[LAH 1 SS]

Redcoat just curious what resource are you quoting from thanks mate (personal reasons). Hagen you are correct when quoting Feys report but Agte further states that 4 shermans were destroyed before the fifteen heavy armoured tank's. There is much conjecture in regards to the actual number of vehicles destroyed by Wittmann (due to the varying resources and lack of witnesses alive). The tank ace himself will be the only one who knows for certain how many were disabled in VB

[PanzerBob]

:shrug:Another thing rings true in General Dietrich's submission and that is the time honoured tradition of trumping up reasons to get someone an award or promoted. I doubt very much at the time this was written there was any thought on how it would effect the historical record years later.

Those who have served have seen this many times and may have written a few themselves.

Bob out:coffee:

[TRDG]

Thanks guys for picking this up, my readings have something a bit different and I'll post it Monday maybe depending on my game time on my day off.

Cheers, and please remember that we can debate the numbers stuff, but lets do this in the spirit of The Zone, as I'm sure we do anyways. Just in case we get some newer members here starting a "ruckus" that we don't need, to fully investigate this very interesting battle to get all of the "different facts" that we can. Thanks!!:shrug:

Tom

[redcoat]

LAH 1 SS said:

Redcoat just curious what resource are you quoting from thanks mate (personal reasons).

Here's a couple to be going on with,
Battle of Villers-Bocage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

panzerace.net | villers bocage

Quote

The tank ace himself will be the only one who knows for certain how many were disabled in VB

Seeing the British retained possession of the battlefield after the morning attack, the British would have a far better idea than Wittmann himself would

[LAH 1 SS]

Thanks for that redcoat have seen and used those two references before.

That's a fair assumption but surely a tank comander (especially one as good as Witmann) would know or have some idea of what he has destroyed during the battle, as the route he took through VB would have been easily retraced by Wittmann especially if it was just after the battle. VB was in german hands through the battle on the dates of 13, 14, 15 and possibly 16 june 44 (the 15th and 16 saw the british carpet bomb VB) before the british recaptured VB (stated by Agte in his book) as there is photographic evidence to prove this (previous photos posted most of which can be seen in the Bundesarchive), so im thinking that it would have been recorded by the germans as well as the british. As to the accuracy of these figures on both sides that is still an open question

This post has been edited by LAH 1 SS: December 15, 2008 - 10:42 PM

[LAH 1 SS]

This was taken from the wikipedia article

"German propaganda was offered an opportunity to exploit the battle, as the British had lost contact with the forces on Point 213 and had withdrawn from Villers-Bocage they could not establish what losses they had inflicted or what had happened on the ridgeline".

Granted this is only one veiw but it is further supporting evidence of the lack of British knowledge in regards to the actaul numbers lost at VB cant be confirmed and also proves the germans were in VB directly after the battle.