[Aussie Dave]

Over here in Australia at the moment one of the BIG news stories is Illegal Immigration and 'Boat People' who risk their lives trying to get here.

I am a supporter of immigration but I strongly oppose accepting illegal immigrants who use the world media to apply pressure on our government to make exceptions for them and grant them citizenship.

IMHO Australia is a real 'Soft Target' and we need to get tough on illegal immigration because the flow of illegals will increase as more are rewarded by being allowed to successfully enter the country and stay at our financial expense.



This would be funny if it wasn't so true.

Quote

IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.


IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.


IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.


IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.


IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.


IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.


IF YOU CROSS THE AUSTRALIAN BOARDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET:
A JOB,
A DRIVERS LICENSE,
PENSION CARD,
WELFARE,
CREDIT CARDS,
SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
FREE EDUCATION AND FREE HEALTH CARE.
(All supplied to them by the Aust. Govt. and funded by the Australian Tax Payer.)

However our Australian governments have made a real mess of things too in handling the problem and given the illegal immigrant detainees too many avenues of appeal and allowed them to avoid or constantly delay their deportation by tying up the system with 'red tape', filling the immigration detention centres.

Quote

Illegal immigration into Australia has two sources.
First, it has been revealed that large numbers of visitors arrive at Australian airports who either have false identities or who receive temporary visas which they over-stay.
These latter entrants arrive with the intention of disregarding any restrictions upon the length of their visits and of submerging themselves in ethnic communities where they are difficult to identify.

Hence there is a swelling accumulation of illegal immigrants in Australia, who if discovered are difficult to remove in view of the generous legal assistance by the Australian taxpayer in funding legal fees enabling them to oppose extradition.



Secondly, the problem of "boatpeople" has become increasingly obvious. Due to a perception that Australian immigration laws are weak, large numbers of would-be immigrants have paid, and are now paying, substantial sums to intermediaries who organise illegal entry into Australia.

Many of these boatpeople originate from China, Afghanistan and Iraq.
When they arrive within the Australian jurisdiction they commonly claim rights of entry as refugees.
Again, they are provided with financial resources by the Australian taxpayer to pay the legal costs of arguing their cases — one estimate is that the cost of removing an illegal immigrant is, on average, approximately $60,000.

Because the relevant government regulations are loose, and because the Federal Court has proved itself to be less reliable than the State Supreme Courts, many illegal immigrants have proved to be undeservedly successful before the Federal Court.

What is apparent is that the existing legal rules in regard to illegal immigrants are inadequate.
The grant of legal assistance to them in order to sue the Australian government is absurdly generous.

What, instead, is needed is a simple rule that any person who has illegally entered Australia is to be returned forthwith to his country of origin.
Any application as a "refugee" should not be made in Australia, and it should be provided that those claiming refugee status do so before coming here.

So far as boatpeople are concerned, it must be appreciated that if, as now, Australia continues to have an excessively sympathetic attitude, it will continue to be singled out as a place for illegal entry.
Although one may wish to treat kindly those who are subject to unreasonable or oppressive governments, if a firm position is not taken there will be a continual expansion of the business of bringing in illegal immigrants to Australia.

Those who organise transportation are highly renumerated, and it would be naive to believe that they can be restrained otherwise than by firm and decisive treatment.

For boatpeople, therefore, the appropriate course is to have sufficient coast guard vessels to intercept them before they come within Australian waters and to require them to return to their countries of embarkation.
Where appropriate food, water and fuel should be provided to them on humanitarian grounds to ensure that they can return safely to those countries. (If they have already arrived in Australia they should be returned or deported on the same basis.)
When returned to their own countries they will be able to make proper applications for entry to Australia if they choose to do so, either on a normal basis or as refugees.



It should however be added that the concept of "refugee" should not be construed generously for these purposes.
There are many countries where civil rights are more limited than in Australia, and where varying degrees of repression exist.

Unfortunate as this position is, it does not compel Australia to accept persons from those countries as refugees.
Otherwise the flow of applicants would swell beyond any possibility that they could be assimilated or even be welcome.

Once again 'Political Correctness' has gone insane.




Cheers,
Dave

[Frizzenspark]

We have quite a number Illegal Mexican Immigrants here in the USA. I was stationed on the Arizona-Mexican border, we would have groups cross at various points, especially at night. One route was through the mountain range that ran through our base; this wasn't so much a security issue as an environmental issue.... the travellers would leave tons of garbage up on the mountains.

[Tom Houlihan]

Dave, all I'm gonna say on the issue is that I agree. At least you don't have ... Never mind, I ain't gonna start!!!!

[Frizzenspark]

Tom Houlihan said:

Dave, all I'm gonna say on the issue is that I agree. At least you don't have ... Never mind, I ain't gonna start!!!!

You're not going to dump-on the Canadians again..... they're people too!!! ...well mostly....

[McCoy]

Frizzenspark said:

Tom Houlihan said:

Dave, all I'm gonna say on the issue is that I agree. At least you don't have ... Never mind, I ain't gonna start!!!!

You're not going to dump-on the Canadians again..... they're people too!!! ...well mostly....

You sure on that? Just look at Em...

[Tom Houlihan]

Canuckians, I basically gots no issue with! I was gonna name an individual.

[Frizzenspark]

Tom Houlihan said:

Canuckians, I basically gots no issue with! I was gonna name an individual.

Oh dear...... it's the Bob Hope thing again, you realize that he was only three when he came over to the states, now that he's passed on I was hoping you'd drop it....

[Aussie Dave]

Frizzenspark said:

We have quite a number Illegal Mexican Immigrants here in the USA. I was stationed on the Arizona-Mexican border, we would have groups cross at various points, especially at night. One route was through the mountain range that ran through our base; this wasn't so much a security issue as an environmental issue.... the travellers would leave tons of garbage up on the mountains.

You may have seen on the news recently that an Australian Customs vessel picked up some 78 Sri Lankan "Tamils" while in Indonesian waters,
(They left Sri Lanka after government forces defeated the notorious LTTE. - aka. Tamil Tigers.)

They were heading for Australia but were intercepted in Indonesian waters before the reached Australian waters and were taken to Indonesia.
But once they arrived there, they refused to leave the Australian Customs vessel (Oceanic Viking) until their demands were met and wanted the ship to transport them directly to Australia, only then they would disembark.

The "Leader" of the Tamils on the ship is a convicted criminal who was deported from Canada, but he thinks that is irrelevant and he should be granted entry into Australia.


After 4 weeks sitting off the Indonesian coast, it seems the Tamils will get what they want. Media pressure has forced the Australian government to do a deal with them to get them off the ship by agreeing to 'Fast-Track' them entry into Australia.


I think the whole lot of them should have been removed from the vessel when they point-blank refused to leave, then packed into C-130's and immediately flown back to Sri Lanka for refusing to comply with the order to disembark.
(I wouldn't be Blackmailed into breaking the rules just for them and make an example of them for trying to use blackmail against us.)

Our Australian Government needs to wake up and realise it's time for the kid gloves to come off and start punnishing instead of rewarding illegal immigrants or the problem will only get worse.
It's like the old expression, "You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time." and it's one the government here obviously hasn't learned yet.



The quote below sums it up perfectly.

Quote

It should however be added that the concept of "refugee" should not be construed generously for these purposes.

There are many countries where civil rights are more limited than in Australia, and where varying degrees of repression exist.

Unfortunate as this position is, it does not compel Australia to accept persons from those countries as refugees.

Otherwise the flow of applicants would swell beyond any possibility that they could be assimilated or even be welcome.

Cheers,
Dave

[Tom Houlihan]

Dave, it can only get worse.

[RAF Liberators]

Well little Bush Howard may have had his faults but at least his government was a bit tougher on this subject. This appears to be the problem with left wing labour governments, you vote them in and then they fill the country with illegals and others that are only too happy to vote for them to stay in power for letting them in. Look at what has happened to England since Blair came to power. It was never that bad under Thatcher, yeah she had her faults but she was for England, and Howard was for Oz.
From what I see from accross the trench here, Rudd is just too nicey nicey and is happy to just let anyone in (except New Zealanders lol). There has to come a time when this whole multicultural nicey nicey thing blows up in our own faces and we wake up to find we've lost our own heritage and values.

[MAGNA]

The other problem here is United Nations charters. Signing those seems to be all right except they then give loop holes which can be exploited in courts. The refugee part of the charter or whatever it is we signed up for says you can't send refugees back to their country of origin if they were treated badly there. This is the grey area if you like as any refugee facing deportation to their country of origin will claim they face persecution if returned. As far as the courts go you are then stuffed and have to keep them. Many know this and are exploiting it.

[Aussie Dave]

That is what they all do, that is claim to be refugees escaping persecution so they wont be sent back.

The sad truth is most of them are just "economic refugees" that want to live here because they come from poor countries.
Most aren't escaping persecution at all despite their claims and will say and do just about anything to stay and avoid being deported.

Seeking a better life is right all humans have, but how we attain it is what defines our personal character.
Why should other more deserving people who do the right thing and apply legally have their applications rejected because a illegal immigrant is given their placement instead?

As Australians we pride ourselves on our sense of "fair play" but this hardly seems fair to punish the ones who do the right thing, while at the same time we reward those who don't.



Cheers,
Dave

[Geek44]

You know of course that the largest group of illegal immigrants is Brits that overstay their visas.
What I can't understand (well...maybe I can) is that the government of the day is also touting a 'Big Australia' with a population of 35 million by 2020 (ridiculous...we're already short of water) or 2025 and yet these people are not welcome.
They talk about 'waves' of boats coming but last year we accepted 2000. That's paltry in my opinion and it's provable that many have been deported to their countries of origin only to be persecuted or killed.
Maybe it's me and something I'm not quite grasping but why are we afraid of these people again?
Peace.

[RAF Liberators]

Quote

Maybe it's me and something I'm not quite grasping but why are we afraid of these people again?

You kind of said it yourself buddy.

Quote

we're already short of water

One reason, the other being capitalistic greed. You probably won't be affected being an artist living out in the boon dogs, but here is an extreme example of what may be causing fear.
Pretend you are the boss of a large manufacturing company. You spend $100,000 on salaries a week for your employees. What if you could get twice as many workers, that work harder than your existing staff for half of the price?
Most illegals in my experience are happy to work, they don't require or want the extravagant lifestyles that we are used to, so they will work for less just to get the basics to live by (which is something they may not be used to).
But at the end of the day we are used to these lifestyles and when they are threatened as they are being we don't like it. Technically it's just a vicious circle, we all want better and better lives, we want things cheaper, we can get them cheaper but at the cost of our own lifestyle. We get things made cheaper abroad, we then lose our own jobs because we've been outsourced to the same country that made those cheap shoes you bought last week.

To be honest I doubt you will get a straight or even a correct answer. Everyone who feels like speaking out against these sorts of things are living in fear of being branded a racist by honest hardworking tree huggers. The world has gone mad with political correctness and one sided arguments which appear to be suppressing the free speech that we in the West seam to value above all other morals.
I don't know of a single forum (and don't really want to as I imagine they are too radical) where you can speak freely without fear of being banned or shunned.
Just my two cents.

[Aussie Dave]

I agree the media spends too much time on illegal immigrants arriving on boats when most of them actually fly into the country.


But the boat people are a bigger threat to the security of this country unlike the ones who fly in, because the boat people bypass any form of security and quarantine checks if they land on our shores and escape detection.

You also have to ask why didn't these people apply to come here legally?
I can tell you why the Tamil leader on the Oceanic Viking didn't apply...

He is a convicted criminal in Canada who was deported from that country when he finished his sentence, thus his application would have been rejected on those grounds had he applied.

I'm not saying all of them are criminals wanted by their own country's authorities but as soon as any of them intentionally break the law by illegally entering Australia, they do officially become criminals and should be treated as such.

It is wrong for the illegal immigrants to break the law and it is wrong that our government can be pressured so much by them and forced into breaking the rules and making exceptions for them.
Two wrongs don't make a right.


Nick, I don't fear them and I have nothing against immigration but lets not give undesirables who will hurt our society free access to Australia.
Unrestricted open access would turn Australia into the world's biggest refugee camp and would destroy not only our economy but also our cultural identity.
(The direction of the flow of refugees would reverse mate.)

ALL of our civillizations and societies only exist because of laws and rules which enforce behaviour.
When someone breaks those law/rules, they know they will have to face some form of a punishment if they are caught.
(We have laws and rules to prevent total anarchy amongst the human race.)

ILLEGAL immigrants KNOW they are breaking 'our laws' but show no regard to them and break them.
Then ironically they use the same laws to bash us over the head with when they do get caught in order to stay.

How many of our laws can an illegal immigrant break before he/she should be denied access to living in Australia?

The trouble is Nick that you can't trust the honesty of individuals who want to immigrate here because some of them with lie, say and do just about anything to get in, so everyone must be sreeened and interviewed.
(Seriously, some wouldn't hesitate for a moment about throwing you to the wolves if it meant they could get in/stay.)
Individuals attempting to bypass the screening and whole immigration process (like the Boat People.) are highly suspect and should attract a much higher penalty for their actions and recieve far less benefits.





Now take a look at the illegal immigrants (Sorry, asylum seekers) behaviour on Christmas Island.
It seems they don't want to get along with other ethnic groups there and have committed serious violent acts against each other based on ethnicity.
(There goes our generally peaceful multiculturalism hey?)

Here is an example of what I call apologist dribble:

Quote

The Opposition's immigration spokeswoman, Sharman Stone, has questioned why Sri Lankan and Afghan asylum seekers were being held together in the first place.

"The whole thing is chaotic and you just have to wonder why there are 150 of mixed background, Sri Lankans and Afghans, in the same sort of area where they keep the pool cues [and] other things that could be used as weapons,"

What a load of BS. What ever happened to an individual's self-control and restraint?
Of course we can't blame the 150 rioters for their own actions because that just makes too much sense.
(Do you want those kind people living next to you? I sure don't want them living next to me.)

Quote

Senator Evans says tensions between the two groups have been building, partly because of concerns from some Sri Lankans that their asylum applications will fail.

Ahh... So they think they wont get what they want so they go berserk and start a riot. Hmmm... Just the kind of citizens we want and need, NOT.



It's time we stopped playing around and start a Zero Tolerance policy towards these individuals before it's too late.


Cheers,
Dave



PS: I just noticed and read your siggy line Nick. - I LIKE IT.

This post has been edited by Aussie Dave: November 23, 2009 - 03:00 PM
Reason for edit: To add a P.S.

[Jim O]

RAF Liberators said:

Pretend you are the boss of a large manufacturing company. You spend $100,000 on salaries a week for your employees. What if you could get twice as many workers, that work harder than your existing staff for half of the price?

Then I'd be a happy boss. I'd fire the lazy bastards and hire those who actually want to work.

Why do you think the US auto manufacturing industry has been brought to its knees? We can say all kinds of things about poor quality and all that but in the end it comes down to three letters - UAW (of course management's "Après moi, le déluge" attitude in negotiations was as much a contributor). Retirement and health benefits for those no longer working add hundreds (if not over a thousand) of dollars to the cost of each American car. American workers have become lazy and accustomed to being given something for nothing. As a taxpayer who now owns General Motors I'd welcome some foreign labor who would be willing to work for me for less. But then that's just me, being the owner of a large corporation, speaking.

Yes, I'm in favor of following the rules and not giving anyone a "free ride" but the fact is that legal immigrants in US society on average contribute to the tax base within a few years of arriving. Making it easier to get in would solve the illegal immigration problem but, of course, would give our land a "brown", Spanish speaking majority sooner than it will happen anyway. The US, Australia, and New Zealand are all countries of immigrants who stole the land from the indigenous populations. Most of those immigrants were coming for better financial opportunity, other than those that descend directly from exiled felons. "Yup, I'm here, let's close the doors now!" does seem a bit disingenuous given that historical fact. But then that's just me, being a liberal, speaking.

[RAF Liberators]

I'm not against immigration as such, I'm against the isolationists that come for the better life and then refuse to integrate in to the existing society.
Oh and for the record NZ wasn't taken from the indigenous population, the indigenous population was eaten by those that sold the land to the Europeans. Unlike Oz and the US, the population of NZ actually got a fairly good deal by comparisson.

[Aussie Dave]

RAF Liberators said:

Pretend you are the boss of a large manufacturing company. You spend $100,000 on salaries a week for your employees. What if you could get twice as many workers, that work harder than your existing staff for half of the price?

Why bother risking legal action for the underpayment of staff wages?

No, actually you out-source the work and move the manufacturing off-shore to some third world country were labour laws don't exist, then you make all of the manufacturing staff at home redundant and give yourself a nice big fat bonus. - Quite immoral really but all perfectly legal.

Jim O said:

Yes, I'm in favor of following the rules and not giving anyone a "free ride" but the fact is that legal immigrants in US society on average contribute to the tax base within a few years of arriving. Making it easier to get in would solve the illegal immigration problem but, of course, would give our land a "brown", Spanish speaking majority sooner than it will happen anyway.
The US, Australia, and New Zealand are all countries of immigrants who stole the land from the indigenous populations. Most of those immigrants were coming for better financial opportunity, other than those that descend directly from exiled felons. "Yup, I'm here, let's close the doors now!" does seem a bit disingenuous given that historical fact. But then that's just me, being a liberal, speaking.

Actually our Australian "indigenous population" arrived here too and didn't originate on the Australian mainland either.

Australia's real indigenous native was called (Don't laugh.) "Mungo Man"

Quote

At some stage in the last 850,000 years (or longer), either Homo erectus or Homo sapiens made the crossing from Java to Australia.
These hominins were the ancestors of Mungo Man. It would not have been a difficult crossing to make. Rats are believed to have made the crossing 2 million years ago.

200,000 years ago, females from an African tribe started spreading their genes through the entire arc between Australia and Africa. This spreading of female genes could have occurred as a result of a nomadic African tribe emerging from Africa and breeding throughout Asia. It could also have occurred as a result of an Asian tribe going to Africa, and forcibly taking women back to Asia. (*Although evidence indicates that all humans might have had a female African ancestor 200,000 years ago, there is no evidence to show a male ancestor.)



60,000 years ago, Homo sapiens with African ancestors started migrating into Australia, and joined Mungo Man.

The first group of Africans were known as Robust due to their heavy-boned physique.
This group was significantly different from the slender body shaped Gracile of Mungo Man.
The Robust soon came to dominate Australia. Either they killed most of the Gracile or they bred most of them out of existence. Many thousands of years later, more Gracile either migrated to Australia, or a group of Gracile that survived the Robust invasion starting dominating the Robust.
Aborigines today have a Gracile body shape.

I admit they have been here a lot longer than the europeans have, still...



As for being "immigrant exiled felons" we all know that the British back then didn't send the nasty criminals anywhere, they hanged them instead.
Some of the types of "crimes" that could get you transported to a colony back then were really quite absurd, like stealing a fish from a river??? for example.
Besides that, you have to know they weren't exactly jumping up and down and volunteering for a chance to come here mate.
(The lifestyle in Australia was a bit different back then.)


But seriously Jim those events happened in a different time period and the world was a totally different place back then.
The type of world we live in now has a changed beyond recognition from then and the world's population numbers are skyrocketing, so where do you draw the line?

At this point in time for one example, did you know Australia can't even supply enough housing for its existing and growing population?
Not that it will matter if there is not enough water for us to survive.
Australia has a lot in natural resources except one and without water we can't expect our population to continue growing unchecked.

It sounds harsh but at some point you have to make difficult decisions for the greater good and ensure laws are enforced, otherwise we will end up a ruined nation that's for sure.




I love my country, my family has sacrificed loved ones in the defence of this country and I like my grandfathers and father have served in the defence my country, so I am fiercely proud and protective of Australia.

When I see individuals like the Tamils on the Oceanic Viking breaking our laws, issuing ultimatums to our government and using the media for emotional blackmail to gain entry to Australia and succeed at it, it really annoys me to say the least.
Also worth considering is the 79 people that applied legally who will have their immigration application denied because their places were taken by those Tamils.
(And that's not fair.)


But then that's just me, being a realist, speaking.



Cheers,
Dave

[Geek44]

All of that may have some truth in it. But speaking as an 'artist living in the boon hogs' and as a chardonnay sipping socialist and all of the other generalized, stereotypical, somewhat demeaning and generally incorrect labels that might be applied to me, I know this...
It would only be under the most desperate circumstances, those we've all read books about but somehow fail to empathise with, that I would pack my kids and family onto an un-seaworthy boat captained by criminals who viewed me and my children as commodities and try to reach a pretty hostile foreign country in the hopes of eking a living.
Compassion is not weakness.
Peace.

[RAF Liberators]

Why not? I packed my kids and family on to an unseaworthy airplane (it was probably Captained by the descendant of a Criminal), the company that owned the aformentioned unseaworthy airplane definately saw us as a commodity when it charged us $1,000s (for a one way ticket) only to land on a hostile foreign country (everyone hates Pomms ) and here I am now eeking out a living.
Sorry Nick if you felt I generalised you mate, you do come accross as a bit of a Tree hugger though