[Wustenfuchs]

Great video!

[/YOUTUBE_BROWSER]Zbz6Oa5PQuA&feature=related]YouTube - Hood vs Bismark

[Klaus]

I don't know why but fireing ships alwas give me the creeps.

[Wustenfuchs]

I wonder why Admiral Lütgens hesitated to return fire? And is it proper for the Captain, Lindemann, to overide his superior officer? I can only figure that since he was the Captain it was his ship and he had the last word. Sorry the video didn't show the rest of the story.

[MAGNA]

Wüstenfuchs said:

I wonder why Admiral Lütgens hesitated to return fire? And is it proper for the Captain, Lindemann, to overide his superior officer? I can only figure that since he was the Captain it was his ship and he had the last word. Sorry the video didn't show the rest of the story.

That would be the case although he would usually defer to the Admiral. It was also strange how Lutjens decided to stick so close to his orders and not go after Prince of Wales when it was very likely the two German ships would have sunk it.

[PatBC]

I think he was correct to follow his orders. While the Germans might have sunk the PoW, what if they suffered damage causing the them to need to turn back to port. Look what happened when they get forced to head to port. Roaming free in the Atlantic he could have the shutdown of most the Atlantic convoys a far more serious effect on Allied War effort then loosing PoW would be.

[MAGNA]

I suppose so although Bismark had already been damaged in the encounter.

I have also often wondered why she was sent out when she was anyway. It seemed like a big gamble to me.

[McCoy]

You won't win without a gamble now n' then. But it sure is easyer to play with a full deck...

[PatBC]

I think she was sent becuase German Raiders had been successful at that point. I do not think the German command realized how hard the RN would go after her however.

[Pylon1357]

Had the Bismark NOT sunk the HOOD, I don't think the British would have come after her with such vengeance.

This may have gone through the minds of those on board, and thus a delay in the return fire. I do disagree though with the idea of not going after the POW. Certainly the POW was no match for the Bismark.

[MAGNA]

To the British the thought of Bismark getting hold of a convoy would have been a nightmare. I don't know what the effect of a capital ship in the sea lanes would have been on other countries as far as their merchant fleets would have been concerned either.

I have been told the U-Boats were still gearing up at that time so Bismark and Prinz Eugen were sent to keep the pressure on the supply lines.

[LAH 1 SS]

it was well known that whilst the fitting out of bismark and tirpitz was taking place that allied convoys were being hunted and descimated by the scharnhorst and gneisnau along with other pocket battleships like admiral hipper and admiral scheer working together as small battlegroups there gun size and speed made them ideal surface raiders . to add to this the plan was to have the bismark and tirpitz (when finished) both head the two seperate battle groups and to have them roaming the oceans sperately to attack the convoys thus increasing the firepower and the tonnage rate of ships that could be sunk.

it was well known that during the engagement prinz eugen took alot of the fire from hood and prince of wales due to the british being unable to tell which ship was which. it wasnt until bismark fired that the error was recognised, have a look at german ship design or the profiles of the various ships and see how similar the silhouettes were. at a range of 1mile you could mistake the sharnhorst, prinz eugen or bismark for each other. this was very clever of german ship design at the time and it worked in the case of operation rhinebung. this along withe the speed that german warships could get to 30+ knots makes them very agile surface raiders and faster than any british warship of the time .

i know the orders were for bismark to remain silent and to try and slip into the atlantic convoy lanes unspotted (didnt work). hitler's orders were that he expressly forbade any german capital ship to engage another capital ship as hitler feared loosing the super ships (hence why tirpitz spent all her time in the norwegian waters after bismark was sunk she never fired her guns at another capital ship). there were further plans to build 6 ships bigger than bismark classed h class ships. these were similar in design but carying 18 in guns could you just imagine if these ships had been built and bismark not sunk no allied capital ship would have been safe or convoy as well for that matter.

lutgens waited to return fire becuase of hilters orders ( as stated earlier) however the pounding the prinz eugen was getting plus the fact that bismark was being called upon to test her strength helped the process a bit i feel. another thing to take into account would be that the german range finders on bismark would have been taking note of the fall of shot from prince of wales and hood alot easier to gauge the range of an enemy vessel when you see where there shots are landing. from this bismarks shot was far more effective than prinz eugen becuase prinz eugenwould have been trying to find range whilst being fired upon just my theory on things guys what do you think

This post has been edited by LAH 1 SS: April 21, 2008 - 01:26 AM

[salinator]

LAH 1 SS said:

it was well known that whilst the fitting out of bismark and tirpitz was taking place that allied convoys were being hunted and descimated by the scharnhorst and gneisnau along with other pocket battleships like admiral hipper and admiral scheer working together as small battlegroups. to add to this the plan was to have the bismark and tirpitz (when finished) both head the two seperate battle groups and to have them roaming the oceans sperately to attack the convoys.

The Admiral Hipper was not a pocket battleship, but was the lead ship of the Hipper class heavy cruisers that included Blücher and Prinz Eugen. (also Lützow and Seydlitz).

Quote

it was well known that prinz eugen took all of the fire from hood and prince of wakes due to the british being unable to tell which ship was which, it wasnt until bismark fired that the error was recognised, have a look at german ship design or the profiles of the various ships and see how similar the silhouettes were.

Not so. The Bismarck was seen leading the Prinz Eugen by allied airplanes in the inital breakout and at the time was the lead ship, and was so as shadowed by Norfolk and Suffolk. Admiral Holland ordered the initial fire to concentrate on the lead ship, believing it to be the Bismarck, but corrected that mistake before the Bismarck returned fire.

Quote

at a range of 1mile you could mistake the sharnhorst, prinz eugen or bismark for each other. very clever of german ship design at the time and it worked in the case of operation rhinebung. this along withe the speed that german warships could get to 30+ knots makes them very agile surface raiders and faster than any british warship of the time .

You and I can mistake the ships, but the men of the ships can tell.
The similarities were by coincidence. The Scharnhorst was based on the Mackensen class of WWI and the Bismarck was based on the Baden class.

[LAH 1 SS]

fair enough i stand corrected the german navy is not my strong point sorry mate

[salinator]

LAH 1 SS said:

fair enough i stand corrected the german navy is not my strong point sorry mate

You have nothing to be sorry about. We are all here to learn and exchange information. I look foward to hearing much more from you.

[LAH 1 SS]

i have always loved the german navy however the skills i have as an armour and aircraft modeller i cant seem to transfer into ships i have a 1/350th scale bismarck and enough reference material to go with it plus a 1/72 scale uboat with reference material to go with it sitting there ( forgot the etched brass as well) so as a result i havent gone any further with it at all its not much of an excuse i know sorry but i am willing to learn

[McCoy]

No worries mate! Everyone is in the wrong from time to time n' there's not a big deal in the end. What's a big deal is that some out there admits it n' moves on. That's BIG. I've got a sayin' when it comes to history.

"The more I learn 'bout history, the more I realize just how little I know 'bout history!"

[PatBC]

A submarine carries enough tornadoes to sink maybe 20 ships, with deck gun another dozen or so.

The Bismark carried enough ammo each cruise to sink thousands of merchant ships. Many important ports would be defenseless against her. Regardless of the fate of the Hood, the RN would commit every resource to stop her.

[MAGNA]

Good points Pat.

[Brin]

I believe that PatBC has the most critical point, the RN needed to stop the Bismark from breaking out and running free. She had excellent speed capabilities in comparison to most of the RN large ships of the time. I suggest that it was this aspect of speed that Lutjens wanted to use to break free and complete the task assigned to her.

As to reasons why Bismark didn't initially open fire, is more likely that it would have been completely obvious at the start of the encounter to all the participants that the Hood and Prince of Wales (PoW) were hopelessly out gunned and outclassed. It would have seemed absolutely pointless (bordering on suicide) to engage such a superior force directly in a ‘set piece battle‘, from the Bismark’s viewpoint it would be an engagement that would only slow down and therefore reduce any chance of achieving its aim. From the aspect of the Hood and PoW it was to follow/track and if possible harry the German ships. Although a mistaken target by the PoW over the Eugen for Bismark is possible, it is also unlikely. I would suggest that by skirmishing the Prinz Eugen, it might slow the group, thereby allowing sufficient time for the remainder of the RN forces to consolidate an attack. However if you start poking a sleeping tiger, and then when it wakes you find that you are to close…… is more likely why the RN ships then engaged the Bismark after the Prinz Eugen, but having to make the dash for range being much smaller gunned.
The Hood was a new (at the time) compromised design, reduced armour for speed. The gamble was exposed by the Bismark, although it could be argued only by a lucky shot.

As to why the Bismark did not sink the PoW, I would suggest that time was of the essence. For naval combat of WW2 usually involved timescales of hours and not minutes, for to the sink the PoW might take most of a day, as they were dealing with conventional artillery pieces mounted on a moving platform trying to hit a moving target of changing speed and direction which would be trying not to be hit. At which point Lutjens was most probably not aware of what contact the PoW had with other RN forces, and most importantly where these forces were located. So by leaving it to escape was strategically the best option in order to complete his mission.

The sinking of the Hood served as propaganda in Britain to polarise the nation's attitude, not to mention the resolve of the sailors at the frontline to find and sink her.

Visual recognition, most ships at sea look similar to those unfamiliar with naval aspects, but to the visual spotters and upper deck gun crews ship recognition was in effect their basic seamanship trade (as it still is today). It would only be by explicit camouflaging or altering a ship to appear as another could such a deception work. After all, the Bismark at 50,000 tons displacement, even if with a similar silhouette, by sheer volume appears much larger than the Prinz Eugen at 18,400 tons (max).

I felt sorry for the 100+ dockyard fitters onboard the PoW who were still refitting her during the sea trials she was undertaking at the time.

The point of vengeance, probably only appeared in the latter stages of the final battle prior to the Bismark being scuttled.

[TRDG]

Nice post brin, a great start, one question though, would it have been a "lucky shot" or more along the lines of skill for the Bismarks gunners (or a bit of both). I have no idea how good her crew actually were at gunnery, good, bad, superb?

Cheers, thanks!!

Tom