[Aussie Dave]

I saw this on the TV news the other day, and I was disgusted by it.

Quote

THE US military planned to test deadly nerve gas on Australian soldiers in far north Queensland during the Cold War, declassified documents reveal.

The Defence and Prime Minister's office files show that the US was strongly pushing then prime minister Harold Holt's government in the 1960s to allow tests of two of the deadliest chemical weapons ever developed -- VX and GB, better known as Sarin nerve gas.

The revelation airs this morning on the Nine Network's Sunday program.

It says the top secret plan involved allowing 200 mainly Australian combat troops to be aerially bombed and sprayed with the chemical weapons.

It's understood the Iron Range rainforest near Lockhart River in far north Queensland was the likely location for the tests.

Peter Bailey, a former senior official with Mr Holt, tells the program the request caused consternation in Canberra, and as far as he knows the tests never went ahead.

But he says planning was very advanced in the US, which wanted the operation to be kept secret because the weapons were illegal under international law.

US planned nerve gas tests on Australian soldiers | The Courier-Mail

Nice way for the US Government to treat a friendly nation and its Ally hey?


Cheers,
Dave

[Horch]

Nothing really new about that sort of thing. The US has a history of doing stuff like that. And to our own troops. Nice way to treat yer own,huh? A guinea pig is a guinea pig. It stinks no matter which way. I am also sure the US isn't alone with such 'experiments'.

[Horch]

Like I stated..nothing new.

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[Commander Waffle]

They only thing thats wierd is that some of the accusations and 'facts' could have been rumors about sometihng the news just made into a story. I'm sure its hard to lie about sometihng like this though, but maybe smaller facts. Still pretty stupid...

[Geek44]

I'm almost certain that I don't have to point out the nuclear tests done by the British around Maralinga either Dave. The personnel present at that little episode, both British and Aussie are still dying of cancer. They say there was nobody on the site during the detonations but the aborigines weren't even counted on the census at the time so their whereabouts during the tests would have been difficult to verify. There is strong anecdotal evidence to suggest that people were in fact killed outright by the blasts.
There are thousands of square kilometres out there that will remain a 'restricted' zone because of the isotopes created by the blast. Forget building a house there for the next twenty or so thousand years. I've driven past the site and it's huge...perhaps the size of Victoria or Tasmania (these are states for the non-Aussies).
Governmental treatment of service personnel remains appalling. In the US, they're busy changing the definition of 'mental' issues so that nobody has to pay compensation or pay for psychiatric care for those afflicted with post traumatic stress disorder...the cost of which will be very high among people returning from Iraq. They're heroes until they are wounded...then nobody wants to know them. BTW this is all verifiable.
Before we get on our 'Aussie high horse' mate, I'll also point out that a condition laid down for the intervention of Australian troops in East Timor was a sixty or seventy per cent share of their oil. Seems, we're not the best mates to have either.
Makes me wonder why anybody would join the service.
Peace.

[Geek44]

As an add to the above, Australia remains (much to my shame) the only nation in the world to allow a foreign power to test weapons on its soil. It's what happens when you have a leader (Sir Robert Menzies) in the thrall of a foreign Queen.

[Wolster]

Interesting Nick, does the Australian tax payer contribute to the worlds biggest dole bludger? Or is it just the British? By the way, a lot of British wonder why they have to pay for a foreign Queen who has absolutely no affect on their life's!

[Geek44]

I don't think our taxes go anywhere toward the Queen herself, but we do fund the Governor General who is the Queen's representative in this country. He's actually empowered to sack the government if he sees fit to do so and he did in 1976. I'm certainly aware that many Brits resent what is essentially a figure-head...I have a copy of Bill Bailey's 'Part Troll' and he gives her a caning. There's a pretty strong 'Republican' movement down here and for my part, the quicker we formalise our independence from Britain the happier I'll be. Not because I have anything against the British or Britain (quite the contrary in fact), rather because I think it's time we stood on our own feet. We do anyway...but that Governor General holds the real power. He doesn't make policy but if he doesn't like the policy that is made...he can (and has) take steps.
In a documentary I saw a few years ago, there was a suggestion that the nuclear tests were allowed because of an inference that the technology would be shared. There's been a history here of fear (read racist paranoia) of the 'yellow hordes' to the north and the nuclear deterrent could be seen as being very useful. A high ranking politician of the day's most famous (and disgraceful) public statement on the issue of Asian immigration was 'Two Wongs don't make a white'. Need I say more on that?
Suffice to say, the technology wasn't shared.

[Wustenfuchs]

Geek44 said:

I don't think our taxes go anywhere toward the Queen herself, but we do fund the Governor General who is the Queen's representative in this country. He's actually empowered to sack the government if he sees fit to do so and he did in 1976. I'm certainly aware that many Brits resent what is essentially a figure-head...I have a copy of Bill Bailey's 'Part Troll' and he gives her a caning. There's a pretty strong 'Republican' movement down here and for my part, the quicker we formalise our independence from Britain the happier I'll be. Not because I have anything against the British or Britain (quite the contrary in fact), rather because I think it's time we stood on our own feet. We do anyway...but that Governor General holds the real power. He doesn't make policy but if he doesn't like the policy that is made...he can (and has) take steps.
In a documentary I saw a few years ago, there was a suggestion that the nuclear tests were allowed because of an inference that the technology would be shared. There's been a history here of fear (read racist paranoia) of the 'yellow hordes' to the north and the nuclear deterrent could be seen as being very useful. A high ranking politician of the day's most famous (and disgraceful) public statement on the issue of Asian immigration was 'Two Wongs don't make a white'. Need I say more on that?
Suffice to say, the technology wasn't shared.

"Two Wongs don't......" That pisses me off big time. Sorry if I used bad language, but without a question any politician that said that was worse than an idiot. They were, obiviously, the words of a simple minded racist fool, we got them here in the US too unfortunately, and they seem to prosper everywhere in the world. What's wrong with people?. Why is bigotry, hatred, paranoia, and racismm so prevelant? Is it inherent?

[Geek44]

That was said in the 1950's I believe. Just after the war, there was paranoia of all things Asian, specifically Japanese. Even when I was growing up in the seventies, all Asians were collectively referred to as 'Chinese' whether they be from China or not. Usually, they were Vietnamese but middle Australia wasn't concerned with those specifics.
Our last Prime Minister, John 'Man of Steel' Howard, defeated last November after eleven years in power played on peope's fears to win elections twice. There was what we term 'The Children Overboard' affair which occurred just before a Federal election that looked like it would be close. A leaky boat full of middle eastern (muslim) refugees appeared off the northern coast and as the boat started to sink, the Aussie navy did nothing. Rescue was left to the captain of a Norwegian container ship, the Tampa. The government refused entry to these poor folks, mostly women and children claiming that the adults were throwing their kids into the sea in order to force the navy into saving their lives. It's since been proven that this did not occur (duh!) and the guy behind the lie (Peter Reith) was rewarded with a cushy $500K a year job in London.
This same Prime Minister (still in power this time last year!) interred asylum seekers and refugees in privately run camps in the desert. Surrounded by razor wire, these people, including women and children, were kept on ice for years while their applications for asylum and/or protection were 'processed' by bureaucrats in Canberra. Truth is that 99% were dismissed as a matter of course and the applicants deported, often back to Iraq and Afghanistan (them darn muslims again). One guy, acually a 'stateless' person was deported back to Serbia despite the fact that he had NEVER lived there, didn't speak the language and knew nobody. He remained homeless in Belgrade for two years. The current government has allowed him back. Studies taken among the inmates of these detention centres showed that 95% suffered from mental illness after their first year in the camp...some even sewed their lips together in protest. There were suicides. John Howard, responsible for all this either directly or indirectly, is the second longest serving PM we've had. Immensely popular at his peak...we all knew what was happening. Some of us protested, most did nothing because he ran a good economy. Many applauded it and some said it wasn't harsh enough. I've banned people from my home because they supported it! Aussie racism is flourishing and it's a disgrace. I'm ashamed of it. The last Prime Minister has showed me that my perception of my own people has been idealistic and naive. Ignorant, uninformed, selfish and frightened. Racism is a symptom of fear and cowardice dressed up as swagger and all too often, violence. I'm with you Bill, it's a blight on the collective soul.
Peace and tolerance.

[Geek44]

Just as a quick add Bill. Phillip Ruddock, the then Minister for Immigration had the front to wear an Amnesty International badge whenever he appeared publicly...including when he appeared on TV defending the policies I've described above. HIS OWN DAUGHTER disowned him. They are now estranged. For more info on the detention centres...

Baxter hell, indefinitely filled with indefinite detainees: a page about the Baxter detention centre near Port Augusta, South Australia

Just so you know what we 'down to earth and likeable' Aussies are capable of mate.

[Wustenfuchs]

I may have shared this with you before Nick, somewhere else, but it's a good song worth repeating.

Steeleye Span "White Man"

Some sing of their glory,
few tell the true story.
most men they don't need it,
white man he kills for it.

They took to the seas,
searching for a land that they could call paradise.
stealing the breeze that carried them towards the sun,
with lust in their eyes and a gun in their hand.
they said we've found paradise,
think of the glory look at the prize we've won.

We know who they were,
they were the ones who killed their brothers.
to steal from others,
we know who they were.
they were the ones whose sons and daughters,
are doing it still.

And in their hearts what did they feel?
did they think they had the right to steal.
another man's land who had no name?
o they didn't think he'd feel the pain.

So they sailed away from their own country,
to another man's land far across the sea.
and they stole that land from the people there,
and they called that land Australia.

Why did he do it
white man?

They sailed away one winter's day,
to a sunlit land that was far away.
and they stole that land from the people there,
and they called that land America.

Why did he do it
white man?

[Horch]

I have no problem being a 'white man'. In fact, ya could say I'm rather proud of the fact. It could even make a good song.

[Geek44]

Indeed Horch, being a white man is fine. I just think we in this country (and maybe others, not finger pointing here mind) need to take responsibility for what we do. It's being a buch of arrogant, racist jerks that isn't fine. Personally, I don't consider myself to be a white man, I consider myself a man.

[Horch]

I consider myself both,white and a man. I am not racist nor am I one who prejudges others by their color,religion etc. As a matter of fact that so called song could be considered racist. If it were about blacks or Indians or whatever,who ever posted such gibberish would have been banned from this forum and most likely any other forum. Indeed,we all have to take responsibility for our actions no matter who. Singling out one race,in this case the whites and being condoned on this forum is pure hypocrisy.

[Wustenfuchs]

Being a "white" man is indeed fine, I didn't mean anything derogatory to white folks, I'm one afterall. I didn't write the song, Steeleye Span did, and I'm sure they didn't mean anything derogatory to white people. I think they were pointing out the history, and what people with power, guns, and lust can, and usually will, do. Regardless of skin color.

I agree with Geek, I'm a man before I'm a "white man".

[Geek44]

Wustenfuchs said:

Being a "white" man is indeed fine, I didn't mean anything derogatory to white folks, I'm one afterall. I didn't write the song, Steeleye Span did, and I'm sure they didn't mean anything derogatory to white people. I think they were pointing out the history, and what people with power, guns, and lust can, and usually will, do. Regardless of skin color.

I agree with Geek, I'm a man before I'm a "white man".

[Geek44]

Horch said:

I consider myself both,white and a man. I am not racist nor am I one who prejudges others by their color,religion etc. As a matter of fact that so called song could be considered racist. If it were about blacks or Indians or whatever,who ever posted such gibberish would have been banned from this forum and most likely any other forum. Indeed,we all have to take responsibility for our actions no matter who. Singling out one race,in this case the whites and being condoned on this forum is pure hypocrisy.

I agree to some extent here mate...but the folks who wrote the song were white. What I'm seeing here, is exactly what you're suggesting. White folks taking responsibility for white actions. That's not racist to me.
I think we're now on the 'slippery slope'. At this point, it's my intention to refer this thread to higher mods. It's never been my intention to cause offence here. If I have, I unreservedly apologize.
Peace.

[Wustenfuchs]

Geek44 said:

Horch said:

I consider myself both,white and a man. I am not racist nor am I one who prejudges others by their color,religion etc. As a matter of fact that so called song could be considered racist. If it were about blacks or Indians or whatever,who ever posted such gibberish would have been banned from this forum and most likely any other forum. Indeed,we all have to take responsibility for our actions no matter who. Singling out one race,in this case the whites and being condoned on this forum is pure hypocrisy.

I agree to some extent here mate...but the folks who wrote the song were white. What I'm seeing here, is exactly what you're suggesting. White folks taking responsibility for white actions. That's not racist to me.
I think we're now on the 'slippery slope'. At this point, it's my intention to refer this thread to higher mods. It's never been my intention to cause offence here. If I have, I unreservedly apologize.
Peace.

My feelings exactly.

[Jim O]

I don't think that there was anything derogatory about those lyrics. It was European (white) people who colonized Australia and the Americas too, and took all three continents from their original "owners". That's historical fact Horch. If it were posted about other groups it might be untrue. Nevertheless, the words could be posted as quotes. Bill cited who wrote them. If you're offended take it up with the writer.

Carry on chaps.