Why was Japan in China?

[jdbeatty]

Simple question. Complicated answer.

Traditionally it's been given as "living space and resources." Well, maybe. But fewer than 15,000 Japanese civilians moved into Manchuria up to 1944, and the resources they were buying already before they invaded China proper. So, maybe this isn't the whole answer.

How about, because they wanted to?

Postwar imagery and dialog has been centered around the notion that the Japanese were just a bunch of farmers growing rice. Well, with the largest textile industry in Asia, some of the best fighter aircraft in the world, and the first fast-carrier strike force in operational history, that dosen't sound quite right, either.

Also, traditionally, there's that awful Hroshima/Nagasaki thing, the one that ended the war. The Japanese were already on the ropes and along come these A-bombs and the government just yelled "STOP!"

Well, not really. The military was about to scrap the civil government, what there was left of it. The military was readying for the final battle. The air forces would be immolated in a week, the Navy in perhaps a month after the first invasion forces appeared. The military was prepared to go out in a blaze of glory, A-bombs or not.

They informed the Emperor after Nagasaki that the Soviets would invade Japan by late September, and the Americans likely by November.

At this the Showa emperor realized that he could no longer protect the sacred regalia, that he regarded as the soul of Japan and the symbols of his authority. He decided to throw in the towel. A few militarists tried to stop the transmission and destroy the recording of his voice.

So what's this to do with China, say you? Well, think. How did the war spread beyond China? Would there have been a conflict without China? If not, then why was Japan in China in the first place?

Think on it.

[Jim O]

Because they wanted to be there, or because they could be is the short answer. Manchuria is a different story. They likely went there to protect their supply of raw materials, thinking the Soviets might interrupt those supplies.

Following that, I think there were several factors. They had built a potent force and believed that they could build an empire that they could keep. The relationship between the militarist and Hirohito was a bit of a dog and pony show. They controlled the government because they had a great deal of influence over him, and they in turn "fought for him". With Britain busy fighting in Europe and the US "neutral" they felt that they could consolidate their east Asian holdings. They figured that the US would "blink" and let them keep it, or they would fight for the oil they needed and the US would capitulate from the rigors of a "two ocean war" and let them keep most of what they had conquered. They did not count on the shift in American public opinion or our appetite for war once "provoked" (that provocation is another story of course ).

[Sarge]

I think that for the fundamental why here we have to go back much further in time then the 1930's.

Japan was essentially awakened by Commodore Perry in 1853.

Pearl Harbor - The Rise of Japan - Imperial War Museum

Japan soon realised that to have an Empire was essential to stop itself from being part of someone elses Empire. And so Japan embarked on a monumental programme of modernisation.

This led to a huge influx of westerners and western thought. Japan turned to the Great powers of the time to equip and train its forces while at the same time retaining much of its old culture.

The Army was modelled on the Prussian style while the Navy was largley built and trained by the RN.

And so Japan did what it thought a great power should do, carve itself an Empire.

There were many twists along the road to 1941. Japan probably came to the fore during the Boxer rebellion in China where Japanese forces were the only Asians that were deemed worthy of joining the European powers.

http://
www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq86-1.htm

This no doubt encouraged the Japanese to think of themselves as co-equals with the Imperial forces, which culminated in for what at the time was the shock defeat of Russia in the 1905 war.

Japan Russia War 1904-1905

This no doubt sowed the seed for the Japanese to confirm their manifest destiny and also no doubt to confirm their racial superiority over the other Asian populations and especially China.

Their next big opporunity no doubt came in the years leading up to WW1 when the Royal Navy was withdrawing its strength back to home waters to counter the rapidly growing Imperial German Navy in what became essentially an early superpower race for Dreadnought dominance. Japan and the UK completed a treaty which would see Japan look after much British of their Far East interests. Come 1914 the Japanese gained much at little expense from this aliance and were given most of the German possessions in the Pacific.

So in 1919 the Japanese were to all purposes at the top of the Imperial game, a country to be admired and apart from Thailand the only free country in Asia apart from a China controlled by the Imperials.

We cannot blame them for this as every country, including the US had colonies in the East and I believe they were following best practice, i.e. if you cant beat them, join them.

So in the 30's Japan no doubt thought it was following normal practice to expand into Manchuria Japan's Economic Expansion into Manchuria and China in World War Two

I hope I havent ranted on too much but firmly believe that you need to understand the background to any event. I know I have oversimplified some things but to go in depth would require a Novel.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Japan probably attacked China to make it part of their "Greater East Asia Co Prosperity sphere" so it could take away all the raw materials and supplies, etc. And also a loyal puppet government, the Nanjing one headed by Wang Jingwei, to consolidate their control.

Kevin

[jdbeatty]

Originally Posted by Jim O

Because they wanted to be there, or because they could be is the short answer. Manchuria is a different story. They likely went there to protect their supply of raw materials, thinking the Soviets might interrupt those supplies.

Following that, I think there were several factors. They had built a potent force and believed that they could build an empire that they could keep. The relationship between the militarist and Hirohito was a bit of a dog and pony show. They controlled the government because they had a great deal of influence over him, and they in turn "fought for him". With Britain busy fighting in Europe and the US "neutral" they felt that they could consolidate their east Asian holdings. They figured that the US would "blink" and let them keep it, or they would fight for the oil they needed and the US would capitulate from the rigors of a "two ocean war" and let them keep most of what they had conquered. They did not count on the shift in American public opinion or our appetite for war once "provoked" (that provocation is another story of course ).

Why would they need an empire, exactly? They had the only really stable government in the region, the largest textile industry in the region, and were the only military power in Asia that had once defeated any Europeans. What need did they have for more turf?

The military was coequal with the government in Japan under the Meiji Constitution, and no one could make a move without at least his consent or aquiesecence. THe Showa was anything but a puppet.

The "Britain's distraction" theory only works after September 1939. There was two years of conflict in China before that.

The IJ Navy knew it wasn't ready for a war with the US in 1941, and the IArmy was unclear as to why the attack on the US was undertaken. The expansion of the war beyond continental Asia was a calculated gamble that Japan's military knew they eventually had to lose.

So, why was it undertaken in the first place? I submit that the samurai saw their way of life as dying out, and preferred glorious death to mere obsolescence.

[sniper1shot]

I could be off here but was it not for the Raw materials. Japan might of had a stable gov't but you can't run a country that has nothing. No oil, No coal, No ingrediants to make steel, aluminum etc etc.

[515]

I think they felt left out. Not really have done anything since their war with the soviets. And having that island. I think they felt the need to put themselve in the history books. Also, to bring back the great japanese empire of old. They knew they could do it and they knew that no one would stop them; becuase no one wanted to start another would war. They knew the US wouldnt do anything about it so they attacked us at pearl harbor. Maybe it was to settle something with china. They dont exactly get along. They attacked them pretty hard.

[jdbeatty]

Originally Posted by Sarge

We cannot blame them for this as every country, including the US had colonies in the East and I believe they were following best practice, i.e. if you cant beat them, join them.

So in the 30's Japan no doubt thought it was following normal practice to expand into Manchuria Japan's Economic Expansion into Manchuria and China in World War Two

I hope I havent ranted on too much but firmly believe that you need to understand the background to any event. I know I have oversimplified some things but to go in depth would require a Novel.

"Normal?" Hardly. Japan went up against China for the stated purpose of getting them to recognize the soverenty of their Manchuquo puppet. They grabbed Manchuria (administratively seperate from China) from the Russians ostensibly for "living space and resources," yet moved fewer than 15k people there, while by 1941 the iron smelters had yet to reach 50% capacity for want of labor and material.

The wholesale slaughter for Chinese civilians and of captured soldiers was hardly "normal" by any standards but thier own. The contempt that the samurai felt for China as expressed over and again in the media of the 1930s could only be caused by a racisim that few have ever seen.

No, the standard formulas for the Pacific War that have been in the history books for decades are the direct result of the West's revultion over the horrors of the A-bomb. They just don't wash.

[jdbeatty]

Originally Posted by 515

I think they felt left out. Not really have done anything since their war with the soviets. And having that island. I think they felt the need to put themselve in the history books. Also, to bring back the great japanese empire of old. They knew they could do it and they knew that no one would stop them; becuase no one wanted to start another would war. They knew the US wouldnt do anything about it so they attacked us at pearl harbor. Maybe it was to settle something with china. They dont exactly get along. They attacked them pretty hard.

"Left out" of what?

The action with the Soviets was in 1939, two years after the Marco Polo Bridge incident that started the war with China.

For a society that restricted its contact with Europe to a single island until 1854, "getting into the history books" would be a wierd ambition.

Which "great Japanese empire of old" would that be? They left the home islands only once, at the end of the 16th Century, in a rather disasterous war with Korea and China.

For "knowing" so much they sure got it wrong, didn't they?

China and the Netherlands were Japan's only outlets to the world until 1854. Chinese fashion and culture were emulated by the Japanese nobility until the collapse of the Manchu in 1900. When the gearwheel (Nationalist) revolution began under Sun Yat-Sen in 1911, Japan applauded the idea that order could be restored. Regrettably, the Meiji died in 1913, leaving his weak son (the Taisho) to lead, which resulted in much less militaristic policies and an attempt at liberal democracy and less interaction with the Nationalists. When the Showa (Hirohito) took the throne in 1925 that gradually ended, but it was too late for China, as it had descended into chaos. They liked each other just fine for a long while.

How much they didn't like each other as countries is moot, but the leadership held each other in some contempt. Japan couldn't afford the instability of a chaotic China, but there were measures short of slaughtering them that could have helped. These were not even contemplated.

[jdbeatty]

Originally Posted by sniper1shot

I could be off here but was it not for the Raw materials. Japan might of had a stable gov't but you can't run a country that has nothing. No oil, No coal, No ingrediants to make steel, aluminum etc etc.

True, but they haven't fought a war since and have become an economic powerhouse. What changed?

How about they got rid of the influence of the samurai? Try that for a while.