Germany May Reintroduce Combat Valor Awards

[Klaus]

eah, seeing the Eiserne Kreuz back on duty would be good. But as it says in the article and some posts before mine: Not gonna happen. Too many bad "memories".

[BillyTucci]

Originally Posted by Tom Houlihan

That is a sad article to read.

Indeed.

I hope they bring back the iron cross for their brave soldiers.

[cyberia]

Originally posted by Wolster-Unfortunatley, yes! The Iron Cross may not began life as, but is now, very much a symbol of Nazi Germany. In early every picture of the Nazi Hierachy there is an IC hanging at the throat or breast pocket. Would I want to wear the same medal as some of histories greatest mass murderers? No!

The problem is the rising tide of racism that is sweeping Europe and using Nazi symbology to do it. This could be conveyed as a victory for these people and the 'the German people were just as much victims' mentality that is increasing. The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, not let the liberals to allow the loonies to repeat it! I'm not saying that is what is happening but it could be a toe in the door!!

The problem here is perception. People who don't see things as they are, but see things as they are. There are those who still adopt and use such symbols for the purpose of hate, and those who continue to point to such symbols as such. The two feed off each other.

The IC was a part of German military heritage long before the nazis bastardized it. The same can be said of many other national and even religious symbols all through history.

When well meaning misguided people start blaming the symbols for hate and murder, and not those responsible, that is when doors are opened for much more than a toe.

We never wrote it correctly in the first place! To the victors the spoils!!

If this is your take on winning, you've won nothing.

[gi-rene]

As much as I agree with Cyberia some bring up a good point on the spoiling thing. I have a powerful analogy... but its not repeatable here since it is really base in humor.

[Wolster]

Originally Posted by cyberia

If this is your take on winning, you've won nothing.

Let me answer this first! I don't think you understand the meaning of my post, or I don't understand your response. I was actually supporting your argument. One of the spoils the victors enjoy is to write the history books. They usually make no mention of the bravery of the ordinary German soldier and the conditions he endured. That is why I said they were never written correctly in the first place.

Again, apologise if I took you the wrong way but remember we left the nasty stuff behind!! . I do understand that this is an emotive subject for you and a good dicussion for me!

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Wolster

Let me answer this first! I don't think you understand the meaning of my post, or I don't understand your response. I was actually supporting your argument. One of the spoils the victors enjoy is to write the history books. They usually make no mention of the bravery of the ordinary German soldier and the conditions he endured. That is why I said they were never written correctly in the first place.

Again, apologise if I took you the wrong way but remember we left the nasty stuff behind!! . I do understand that this is an emotive subject for you and a good dicussion for me!

No nasty stuff intended. You and I are at opposite ends of this and I am curious to see if we can find common ground.

I'll leave my family out of this and thereby any emotion, and I thank you for having done the same.

I really don't think we are discussing you and I here, but rather views in general. There are those you feel the IC is a symbol of nazi brutality, and there are those you do not.

Lets continue here and try to understand the issues.

My contention is the IR was established as an honorable military award long before the nazis, and there is no reason it should continue as such now.

It in itself is not a symbol of hate, but one adopted by hateful people.

Case in point 1: During current racial unrest in Great Britain, those making victims of middle-eastern people use the Union Jack as a rallying symbol.

Then should the Union Jack be declared a hateful symbol and abolished?

Case in point 2: I have seen many a neo-nazis in this country wearing the IC and waving the American flag. All the time spouting the same hateful anti-semitic rhetoric as the nazis in the 1930s.

Does this mean the American flag is an extension of nazi ideology?

[Wolster]

Firstly, apologise for not answering the first part of your post above, got half way through and the bloody PC shutdown, piece of carp, new one on the way!

Originally Posted by cyberia

I really don't think we are discussing you and I here, but rather views in general. There are those you feel the IC is a symbol of nazi brutality, and there are those you do not.

Absolutly!!

Originally Posted by cyberia

Lets continue here and try to understand the issues.

My contention is the IR was established as an honorable military award long before the nazis, and there is no reason it should continue as such now.

It in itself is not a symbol of hate, but one adopted by hateful people.

For me, this is the crux of the problem, those people are not going to go away fast. It is an interesting irony that one of the fastest growing places of right wing Nazi-ist parties is in Russia! We have them in the UK though, google combat18, or better still, dont!!

Also, I feel it has been tainted by a few of those that wore it and did nothing to earn it other than killing civilians based on ideology.

I am not saying the modern German soldier shoould not be honoured, just I think a more modern medal. Remember, all military tradions start somewhere! Also, military tradition is not worth one human life!!

Originally Posted by cyberia

Case in point 1: During current racial unrest in Great Britain, those making victims of middle-eastern people use the Union Jack as a rallying symbol.

Then should the Union Jack be declared a hateful symbol and abolished?

Unfortunatley, this has already happened. Particularly with the English flag, the Cross of George. A few years back, in a town next to the one I lived in called Bath the Cross of George was taken down from the town hall as people had complained it was a racist symbol!!

The Liberals are selling the country to the radicals because they are to scared to stand up to them!!

Originally Posted by cyberia

Case in point 2: I have seen many a neo-nazis in this country wearing the IC and waving the American flag. All the time spouting the same hateful anti-semitic rhetoric as the nazis in the 1930s.

Does this mean the American flag is an extension of nazi ideology?

Lets hope it dosnt become so as the case above!! Of course, you are free to fly your nations flag where as we in the UK are not allowed without paying for a licence, and then there are a lot of governing rules. Tradition isn't always good!!

Originally Posted by cyberia

I'll leave my family out of this and thereby any emotion, and I thank you for having done the same.

I will, but I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall if your father and my Grandad were having the sme conversation!!

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Wolster

I will, but I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall if your father and my Grandad were having the sme conversation!!

My guess is that both you and I would learn something from them.

Don't forget, we are debating these issues at the distance of time. We often, and I guess its human nature, try to impose how we think others feel on the subject.

It is interesting how often many old combatants gather wearing the old decorations and see no insult or injury in them. Yet we feel the need to criticize or defend.

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Wolster

Unfortunatley, this has already happened. Particularly with the English flag, the Cross of George. A few years back, in a town next to the one I lived in called Bath the Cross of George was taken down from the town hall as people had complained it was a racist symbol!!

This is the basis of my argument. The Cross of George was never intended to be a racist symbol, nor is it. However, if a group is so inclined as to separate all else contacted with the cross and based on isolated historical events deem it evil, does that make it so?

All through history evil men have found ways to reinterpret symbols of both nations and religions to serve their own agenda. Both the Bible and Qur’ān are contemporary examples.

If tomorrow, the nazis of today decided to adopt the Golden Arches as their symbol, should we then as righteously indignant souls storm and torch every McDonalds and ban the corporate logo?

With the exception of a few militant nutritionists, most would find the thought absurd.

It is not the symbols these people adopt that need to stamped out, it is the evil intent of the people who adopt them.

A neo-nazi racist who wraps himself in a Union Jack is not a blanket condemnation of the British people.

No more than pinning an Iron Cross, minus the swastika, on the chest of a contemporary deserving German solider opening the flood gates for a second Holocaust.

[Dallas]

Since this issue is stirring up so much discussion here, I think we can all get an idea of the discussions in Germany. Hitler didn't like the Pour le Merite, he thought it was to "Prussian", which is why he created the Knights Cross as the supreme award for valor during the war. Germany to this day stilll awards a civilian version of the Pour le Merite for outstanding civilian achievement. I would hope the Germans would recreate the military version of the Pour le Merite, at least as the supreme award for valor. Why not use the "new" unification cross and call it the German Cross of Valor, 1st and 2nd class?