My Year in Iraq, by Paul Bremmer (audio)

[Miss Saigon]

Originally Posted by TRDG

The thing is though, many "soldiers" who have had other combat before, pretty much thought it would be fairly "easy" except WMD (Chem, Bio attacks). There were some snags along the way as we all know, but I think it was a very well run thing until we won that is!!
After that, all bets were off so to speak, don't ya think?

Since we are talking about the plan, I want to go back to something that was in the plan that we talked about before but went wrong. Interestingly I just heard something in Oliver North's book that Criticizes Bremmer about the use of the Iraqi military as labor after the conclusion of the invasion portion. He cites Germany and Japan as examples of effectively using surrendered military as labor to keep them busy and out of trouble, and to put money into the economy. He blames Bremmer for this not happening in Iraq. I find the logic behind this a little strained, but it is interesting to hear what he said.

Bremmer says that the Iraqi Army just melted away, demobilizing itself. Thus it was not available to him to put back to work. North acknowledges that this did in fact happen, but he criticizes Bremmer for not issuing an order calling on Iraqis to return to their barracks and await demobilization instructions. North says that it might not have worked but Bremmer should have tried.

Personally I think that North was stretching credulity over what was actually possible in that situation, but he did make those criticisms of Bremmer so I thought I would add them here. He otherwise had very good things to say about Bremmer but referred to this one thing as a disaster.

[TRDG]

Originally Posted by Miss Saigon

Since we are talking about the plan, I want to go back to something that was in the plan that we talked about before but went wrong. Interestingly I just heard something in Oliver North's book that Criticizes Bremmer about the use of the Iraqi military as labor after the conclusion of the invasion portion. He cites Germany and Japan as examples of effectively using surrendered military as labor to keep them busy and out of trouble, and to put money into the economy. He blames Bremmer for this not happening in Iraq. I find the logic behind this a little strained, but it is interesting to hear what he said.

Bremmer says that the Iraqi Army just melted away, demobilizing itself. Thus it was not available to him to put back to work. North acknowledges that this did in fact happen, but he criticizes Bremmer for not issuing an order calling on Iraqis to return to their barracks and await demobilization instructions. North says that it might not have worked but Bremmer should have tried.

Personally I think that North was stretching credulity over what was actually possible in that situation, but he did make those criticisms of Bremmer so I thought I would add them here. He otherwise had very good things to say about Bremmer but referred to this one thing as a disaster.

[/quote]

You read my mind here, no kiddin' here!! CD to was just as "dry" as I remmber it for the most part until the end of it.

Debathification order 1 was the most critical and best thing the Iraqy people complimented him on in his year long service over there, I thought that was very interesting in so many ways. The exiles return, but not to powere in post war Iraq, I can't beleave they actually thought we would hand over power to them by now, but that is a different topic, but some of the connections to Washington they had, and it seems "being used" a bit woul have entered their minds at some point before Bremmer told them the bad news.
A bit spooky and touched me a bit more was the visit to that mass grave site with the skelitons with wisps of hair still on them, that really made me "feel" Bremmers horror and discust, let me tell ya, as well as the Sadam government, you know it and read about it, but when Bremmer talks about it, it does hit home more for me!! Getting those 25 delegates set was a chore initself and I liked the way it was explained on how they went about it.
And good old Washington and the Pentagon and the mostly slow way they worked, no surprise, but lack of money and people that were asked for not showing up, congress I beleave had something to do with that, really upset me there, what if they actually got those things over there pronto, a different story maybe.........??

The CIA meeting with the new boss, his top priority was still WMD and rounding up the leaders like Sadam, I can see Sadam, but still WMD?? More like saving face, so to speak for the justification of the war ina way as I se it, but that is just me. Compared to what Bremmer wanted, crushing the start of the resistance that started day 1 after the victory............ Again, what if they folowed his advise on this and not chase other things around??

I reallyu thing Bremmer explained it all very well when he talked about the former Iraq soldiers and their command structure ( compared to Hitler no less, and with good reason) A top heavy leadership military, with a lot of diverse and untrustworthy "upper' commanders, you reaaly could not get a lot of them, as well as the rgular soldier to work with the various factions, IE religious and political. North I can't say to much about yet, but I bet I will in the future.

Cheers, how was that MS?

Tom

[Miss Saigon]

Originally Posted by TRDG

A bit spooky and touched me a bit more was the visit to that mass grave site with the skelitons with wisps of hair still on them, that really made me "feel" Bremmers horror and discust, let me tell ya, as well as the Sadam government, you know it and read about it, but when Bremmer talks about it, it does hit home more for me!!

I have been to Auswitz. They had a mountain of human hair there. It really phased me. I couldn't deal with it.

Getting those 25 delegates set was a chore initself and I liked the way it was explained on how they went about it.

Yes. Speaking of plan, I don't see how anyone could have expected things to go faster than they did. Building a functional government in Germany took 4 years and it took 7 in Japan. Not to mention the 12 years it took the Americans before ratifying the constitution.

The CIA meeting with the new boss, his top priority was still WMD and rounding up the leaders like Sadam, I can see Sadam, but still WMD?? More like saving face, so to speak for the justification of the war ina way as I se it, but that is just me.

I am not so sure. 550 tons of yellow cake Uranium just arrived in Canada recently from Iraq. It was shipped from Iraq by the US government to a firm in canada that is going to convert it for civilian power use.

U.S. removes 'yellowcake' from Iraq - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

You will note in the above article they hint at some things that this clears up, but do not actually admit that the press was wrong about them. For example, the whole Valerie Plame - Ambassador Wilson thing eluded to in the last paragraph. That whole thing was connected to Wilson saying there was no Yellow Cake in Iraq and this being used against the Administration's justification for war. Well, there is no Yellow cake in Iraq. It is now in Canada.

This is being downplayed in the media as if it had nothing to with WMD, but it is a building block for nuclear weapons. Again, the above article admits this to be so, but then acts as if in this case it wasn't intended for that. I find that absolutely amazing. It is as if they have put the WMD story to rest and do not want to disturb it.

Tommy Franks also talks about the tons of stocks of intermediate chemicals found in Iraq that were stored in military installations. While not assembled into chemical weapons yet, they were precisely the chemicals used to assemble weapons and they were stored in military facilities. Hard to believe these were for OTHER uses. Plus all sorts of documents were found about the various nuclear and chemical weapons programs.

There is too much politics in the WMD question right now, but I don't think the last word has been written on this yet. Further down the road when it is no longer a question of supporting or discrediting a president and a war for political reasons I think more is gonig to be written about this Iraq WMD thing, and it is not going to be what the NY Times is currently writing.

I reallyu thing Bremmer explained it all very well when he talked about the former Iraq soldiers and their command structure ( compared to Hitler no less, and with good reason) A top heavy leadership military, with a lot of diverse and untrustworthy "upper' commanders, you reaaly could not get a lot of them, as well as the rgular soldier to work with the various factions, IE religious and political. North I can't say to much about yet, but I bet I will in the future.

I like North's book, but I think he was wrong in his statement. The fact is that the Iraqi Army was full of conscripts under the leadership of people many of them despised. The fact that they took the first opportunity to run and go back home is not to be unexpected. And once gone getting them to reassemble wasn't going to be as easy as issuing an order by Bremmer.

Cheers, how was that MS?

Moving right along Yoot

[TRDG]

Thanks for the great reply MS, I think if you could possibly get into a friends house who has HBO, look for Generation kill. That portrays the media a bit different, or at least to the Marines the Rolling Stones reporter that is with them!!!

Cheers, a 7 part mini-series on Sunday nights, please check this one out.

Tom

Yep, this may tie in a bit to this subject, in certain ways, as you may see maybe in future episodes

[Miss Saigon]

I have not heard of this series but I will look into it.

On the up side I went into another used book store while I was away and found two more books.

One of them is "John Adams". This one is 26 disks so it will take a long time to get through, but it is critically acclaimed.

And while it was never my intention to become some kind of middle east expert I guess Alah wants me to because I came across another Al Qaeda book. "The Looming Towers" by Lawrence Wright. It is just luck of the draw what I find in audio books on history and it seems I will keep finding these middle east things. I have gotten though half of this one and it is really interesting. Another fascinating look at the Jihadists and the cultures that spawned them.

[TRDG]

YES, please check Generation Kill as soon as you can, I bet you will find it "interesting" LOL.

I'll pop in CD 3 tonight then post on it Wednesday for ya, that John Adams sounds interesting, let me know how it turns out, Alah willing that is.....

Cheers, I wondered where you have been hiding lately, school I bet.... maybe??

Tom

[Miss Saigon]

Originally Posted by TRDG

I'll pop in CD 3 tonight then post on it Wednesday for ya, that John Adams sounds interesting, let me know how it turns out, Alah willing that is.....

Today, back in the hood, I found two more audio books at Half Price Books. Going away for a week seemed to help them get in new stock. Alah must be asleep because one of the books was on George Washington and the other on Marco Polo :lol:

Cheers, I wondered where you have been hiding lately, school I bet.... maybe??

Tom

Yesterday I was in Vicksburg, Mississippi. Very nice. I love the architecture of the old south. I suppose I should post something in the civil war section on my Vicksburg visit.

[Wustenfuchs]

Quote Miss Saigon:
"Yesterday I was in Vicksburg, Mississippi. Very nice. I love the architecture of the old south. I suppose I should post something in the civil war section on my Vicksburg visit."

Please do!

[TRDG]

Disk 3

I was still struck with the Washington thought that just transferring to the new government was the best strat to end a lot of th rebel attacks. I totally agree with Bremmer when he said he thought it was "wishfull thinking" on their part, understatement of the year, don't ya think??

Sadams sons being killed only got a small foot note here, I thought Paul would have talked more about that.
Then the request for 5 Billion $$ for expecses for part of the year, Busg thought it might have been more!! For the "Bremmer plan"

Cheers, more later.

Tom

Is your CD player getting worn out yet MS??

[Miss Saigon]

Originally Posted by TRDG

Disk 3

I was still struck with the Washington thought that just transferring to the new government was the best strat to end a lot of th rebel attacks. I totally agree with Bremmer when he said he thought it was "wishfull thinking" on their part, understatement of the year, don't ya think??

Agreed. But I think that had more to do with politics than realistic thinking. The idea being to get out of Iraq quickly, but not necessarily effectively.

Sadams sons being killed only got a small foot note here, I thought Paul would have talked more about that.

Well, he doesn't talk about military operations much. My guess is that is because those are beyond his experience and portfolio in Iraq.

Then the request for 5 Billion $$ for expecses for part of the year, Busg thought it might have been more!! For the "Bremmer plan"

As an accountant I never like talking about government money amounts. The problem is that the numbers are so large it is hard for regular people to grasp true meaning. Everything always seems outrageous, even when the amounts may be quite a bargain for what is being done. Without perspective these huge numbers have little meaning to normal people. Without looking at these things more closely, I choose not to think so much about the money.

Is your CD player getting worn out yet MS??

Mostly in the car. I got tired of just listening to music while commuting. I like to read but haven't had as much time for it lately, so I find the audio books are filling the gaps. Although I have less control over the subject matter with audio books.

I am listening to "The Looming Tower" right now. I just heard a great story about how Bin Laden was scammed into buying some fake Uranium in hopes of making a nucleat weapon. Someone saw him coming. It cost Bin Ladin over $1.5 million for the fake Uranium