Schurzen, Armoured Skirts and Fenders

[PanzerBob]

Has any one ever run across information about the Panthers skirts, like their effectiveness, and whether they were a nuisance in muddy terrain etc. It seems they didn’t have a long life once in the field. Actually any info on skirts on any Panzer in this regard would suffice. I'm curious because it seems to me especially in Panthers and to some degree on Tiger II's they were knocked off or taken off on a regular basis.

Thoughts, comments etc welcome

Bob out

[Geek44]

Dunno much about this Bob, but I do know that as the Stürmgeschutz evolved in it's various forms, so did the method of attaching the schürzen. One of the more effective attachment methods was actually one of the simpler ideas where each plate hung from a horizontal metal bar that stuck out sideways. Each plate had a single hole and was attached with a metal washer and split-pin arrangement. It's my understanding that this was one of the few ideas that didn't rely on gravity to hold the plates in place. Modelling magazines assert that the plates were able to swing forward and backward and weren't knocked or pulled off as much, but then modellers are often better modellers than researchers...you can judge that one for yourself.
Peace.

[gi-rene]

Hmm. Well judging from all around and what I do know about Schurzen, it of course not only appeared on Panthers (limited, I haven't seen much and seeing the pictures makes me think it was pointless to put that much effort into a piece of metal that doesn't fully cover the wheels), but also later IV models, even the last of the III's and plenty of assaultguns and tank destroyers.

The main point was to put a piece of metal to make a shaped charge warhead/shell to expend its energy against and to essentially detonate prematurely, the flecks of molten metal would just splatter against the tank.

To me in theory this seems like it would work. Essentially its pre-reactive armor (reactive being the large blocks of explosive you see on many modern MBTs especially Soviet/Russian ones). Though the method it was attached in my mind, makes it a pain to replace and in combat you're sure to knock it around, bend it up, or maybe find a place you can't go because of the extra width added to your vehicle.

As for Schurzen on King Tigers... I've never heard of that. Have a picture or source?

[McCoy]

As you allready know they didn't last long in the field without fallin' off. The schürzen on the Tiger II was bolted in place n' most of 'em did miss more than a few but on the other hand the plates on the Panthers was just held in place by gravity on hooks.

[Geek44]

These two pics, even though they're models, illustrate (somewhat) two methods of attachment, but especially the method I've described above.

IMG_6067.jpg

Unclear given the state of the vehicle, but you might be familiar with the bar running the length of the vehicle with triangular teeth pointing upwards. One tooth is visible protruding up between the aerials. The near side set is visible toward the front. Obviously each plate had 'loops' welded to the back that fit over these teeth. Gravity held the plates in place and I imagine that in the heat of battle, brushing the vehicle against an obstacle could conceivably knock it off.

IMG_6452.jpg

Here's an illustration of the method described above. This arrangement seems much harder to dislodge to me...but then Tiger 1 skirts were bolted on weren't they? As I said...dunno much. Note also the scalloped lower edges of the skirts. No corners to catch on debris.
And they still use this kind of armour today...Stryker vehicles with 'slat armour' are the same deal as Rich pointed out. Panzerfaust/RPG...they're all the same.
Peace.

[Hagen]

Sometimes models are the best way to show details, this pic of a model of a Panzer IVJ Late shows the arrangement for hanging Thoma style skirts. The brackets on the fender were used to bolt the shurzen to.

[PanzerBob]

A lot of good info so far thanks.

There also seems to be some dispute over the reasoning behind Schurzen, Anti-heat weapons while making sense apparently contridicts the official German records which cite them to be for defeating anti-tank rifles. Something tells me both to be true.

Bob out

[MAGNA]

I do remember a few sources noting that the narrow plates put on the various Panther series were added as an acknowledgement of the weak spot between the top of the tracks and the hull.

[Geek44]

Nice model Hagen. One of yours?
Peace.

[Hagen]

Originally Posted by Geek44

Nice model Hagen. One of yours?
Peace.

I wish I could say it was. I have built the kit twice however and would like to get another one.