Panzerkampfwagen IV-Medium Tank

[PanzerBob]

Originally Posted by cyberia

Please do. I have heard the story both as true, and as propaganda, but this is the first time I saw any photo associated with it.

Paul net provides several very short refers that it happened even another shot of the proud crew.



Myself I'm highly skeptical, This was covered in another forum, and the one good ref against the sinking by a Panzer IV is by m K...... he cites no source however so I'll not link it unless you'd like to see.

However, I did find a British sailors account of the troop rescue by RN Destroyers at the same location and dates, he mentions a fight between the ship and the Panzers, which caused some damage to the ship and drove the Panzers off.

BBC - WW2 People's War - Two Days Before Dunkirk

Based on this and my own knowledge of what 3" to 5" guns can do to land targets, Destroyers in general and what Panzer IV's 7.5cm L24 can do. I would say this was a ruse, maybe to convince the fleeing troops all was lost. It's interesting that, the Germans took no pictures beside the sunk Destroyer since they controlled the port very shortly afterwards. I have yet the find a Royal Navy claim of a lost Destroyer here either.

[cyberia]

I know the poster who speak of, and with the size of the axe he likes to grind, I'm not sure I would accept any claim without a source back up.

The most compelling evidence against the incident having taken place is the absence of German propaganda photos of the sunk destroyer. I can't imagine Goebbels' people passing that up, and as you pointed out they had control of the harbor.

On the other hand, I find it a bit tough to believe that a panzer crew would allow a false claim of that magnitude to be made on their behalf. Especially with the full knowledge of their fellow tankers.

As we have discussed in the past, legitimate kill claims were almost scared to them.

[PanzerBob]

Originally Posted by cyberia

On the other hand, I find it a bit tough to believe that a panzer crew would allow a false claim of that magnitude to be made on their behalf. Especially with the full knowledge of their fellow tankers.

As we have discussed in the past, legitimate kill claims were almost scared to them.

I other thing I find odd as well, Paul, is the ship drawn has no armament at all. You would think if they sank a warship they would draw a warship.(I certainly would.) I'm not finished with this yet.

Don't get me wrong the Panzerphile in me would like to believe it, but the Tin Can Sailor side says it is not very likely. What I'd like to do is find enough evidence to lay this to rest. I suspect that these guys may have laid waste to a civilian ship (the KILL Mark shows that) but the press decided to make it a Destroyer because it makes for a better story.

(Hell, on my ship one of our SAM's locked on to something big under water and dived after it, and we had a whale painted on the ship's side along with the trucks we destroyed on the range, until some Admirals' sense of humour was offended)

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by PanzerBob

I other thing I find odd as well, Paul, is the ship drawn has no armament at all. You would think if they sank a warship they would draw a warship.(I certainly would.) I'm not finished with this yet.

Don't get me wrong the Panzerphile in me would like to believe it, but the Tin Can Sailor side says it is not very likely. What I'd like to do is find enough evidence to lay this to rest. I suspect that these guys may have laid waste to a civilian ship (the KILL Mark shows that) but the press decided to make it a Destroyer because it makes for a better story.

(Hell, on my ship one of our SAM's locked on to something big under water and dived after it, and we had a whale painted on the ship's side along with the trucks we destroyed on the range, until some Admirals' sense of humour was offended)

You know, that makes more sense than another take that I have read yet on this story. The panzer crew might very well have come across a civilian ship with either British troops on board or perhaps even arty firing at the shore line (kill claims could only be granted on aggressive targets).
They sunk it and propaganda decided they could "expand" on the story.

Nice deducing there, Bob!

Reminds me of the French General captured at the start of the 1940 campaign. The French claimed he was taken prisoner by a column of tanks, the Germans claimed he was captured by a field kitchen unit.

The poor guy was probably taken by a Herr patrol and both sides were just making the most of it.

But I have to ask. How much damage does a SAM do to a whale?

[PanzerBob]

cyberia;15403]You know, that makes more sense than another take that I have read yet on this story. The panzer crew might very well have come across a civilian ship with either British troops on board or perhaps even arty firing at the shore line (kill claims could only be granted on aggressive targets).
They sunk it and propaganda decided they could "expand" on the story.

Nice deducing there, Bob!

Thanks Paul, I hope I'm right. I've never trust the media with military matters.

Reminds me of the French General captured at the start of the 1940 campaign. The French claimed he was taken prisoner by a column of tanks, the Germans claimed he was captured by a field kitchen unit.

The poor guy was probably taken by a Herr patrol and both sides were just making the most of it.

Yup The ol'saying the first casuality of war is the truth!

But I have to ask. How much damage does a SAM do to a whale?

Lets put it this way, the OPS boys said whatever it was, was big and when the SAM connected both disappeared......contacts gone. We really have no idea what is was, so the joke was a whale.

[Pirate-Drakk]

Originally Posted by PanzerBob

I have some vague recollection of this boat sinking thing. As I recall it was NOT a destroyer but some smaller escort like a PT boat sized thing. Perhaps a river gunboat or something on a lake, not even an ocean going vessel. Maybe I'll try some hypnotic regression or something...

[cyberia]

An engine change for a Panzer IV somewhere in Russia, 1942

[cyberia]

A Pz. IV with the 12th Pz. Div. crosses a wood suspension bridge date and location unknown




Keeping their fingers crossed, crews move their 25 tonne Pz. IVs over an emergency wood bridge, Russia 1944

[Pirate-Drakk]

Originally Posted by PanzerBob

OK, I did find this pic in a book but it only said the kill was a "steam ship". That doesn't sound like a warship to me.

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Pirate-Drakk

OK, I did find this pic in a book but it only said the kill was a "steam ship". That doesn't sound like a warship to me.

That probably explains the type of drawing done by the crew. Chances are they were being honest about it and propaganda took over from there.