Japanese Perspective

[MAGNA]

Originally Posted by cyberia

Top shelf post my friend. Some of this I knew but I had no where near as much detail and I thank you.

An account I read on this, must have been 30 years ago and in a not too reputable magazine, was titled "No Choice But Be A Hero In Your Zero".

A tacky title, I agree.

In it the author said that planes used for such missions were rigged with explosives so that should a pilot try to land rather than carry out his orders, the plane would explode.

I have never heard this since.

Was there was any truth to this?

Agreed. Excellent insight Geek.

As to Cyberia's question - it was a myth that came about due to the inexperience of many of the pilots (apparently) when returning due to no targets found etc. Many crash landed.

The First Order of the Kamikaze was 'Do not be in too much of a hurry to die. If you cannot find your target, turn back; next time you may find a more favourable opportunity. Choose a death which brings the maximum result.'

This order shows that they were expected to find a good target or to return and ready themselves for another try. The other thing that puts the lie to the myth is that no one in their right mind would want someone to try to land a plane anywhere near them if they knew it was going to explode.

I can see why you asked though as it would seem implausible all round.

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by MAGNA

Agreed. Excellent insight Geek.

As to Cyberia's question - it was a myth that came about due to the inexperience of many of the pilots (apparently) when returning due to no targets found etc. Many crash landed.

The First Order of the Kamikaze was 'Do not be in too much of a hurry to die. If you cannot find your target, turn back; next time you may find a more favourable opportunity. Choose a death which brings the maximum result.'

This order shows that they were expected to find a good target or to return and ready themselves for another try. The other thing that puts the lie to the myth is that no one in their right mind would want someone to try to land a plane anywhere near them if they knew it was going to explode.

I can see why you asked though as it would seem implausible all round.

Thanks Magna. That bit always stayed with me. One of those items you pick up in life you just know not to be true, but wait for a qualifying source to debunk it. It would be fun to locate some of those late 60s early 70s "history" magazines and take some of those articles apart.

[Geek44]

Not that I've ever read Paul. Personally, I doubt such measures would have been needed anyway. Japanese culture was traditionally rigidly stratafied. It exists even today but it's morphed into a kind of 'corporate honour' if you will.
From the Simpsons; 'Please don't tell the supervisor I have a shattered pelvis.' Kinda sums it up in a lot of ways. The idea of surrender and or desertion is, in the main, unthinkable.
There was a camp for Japanese POWs near a town called Cowra in New South Wales. I'm unsure of numbers but the camp accommodated hundreds. There was an attempted escape from the prison by a large number of prisoners and those who didn't escape (to where? one asks) killed themselves. I don't think many were recaptured alive either. It's one of the less talked about Aussie WW2 dramas.
There was also a lifetime of culture behind these people. One of the insignias painted onto the tail fins of one particular unit represented 'Momotaro the Peach Boy' who managed to rid Japan of the blond, blue-eyed 'demons' in days of yore. And of course, the very word 'Kamikaze' which was the name for the 'divine' wind that blew Mongolian invaders away from Japan saving it from invasion. Then, there are the forty-seven Ronin.
The 47 Ronin were a band of Samurai who's Master, Asano, was requirred to commit ritual suicide (seppuku) for drawing a sword in the Shogun's palace during an argument with another Lord. The Ronin lay low for a period of twelve months before taking revenge for their dead Master. In 1707, all forty-seven men committed seppuku as was their duty as the dead Master's retainers. This incident was taught to school kids as an example of exemplary bushido from the late Tokugawa period (17th century I think) until the end of the Second World War.

[cyberia]

Great post yet again, Nick. But now we are getting in a gray area. For me anyway.

Obligatory suicide for the military is one thing I can understand. Perhaps not agree with, but understand.

You mention the 47 Ronin being used as an example for school children, and this make me wonder just how prevalent suicide for the sake of honor was among the civilian population.

Case in point: On Saipan Japanese women threw not only themselves but their children to their deaths from cliffs to avoid capture by American forces.

I have heard two reasons for this.

First, that Japanese government propaganda urged them to do so to avoid the atrocities American troops would commit upon them if they were captured.

Two, these women with acting in accordance of their cultural beliefs.

I then to think it was a combination of the two, but would like to hear your opinion.

By the way, I told you this would be a fascinating thread on its own. Good stuff mate!

[Tom Houlihan]

I'll take a demerit for this, but I can't help myself. Fatigue-induced delirium.

You guys know about the oldest living Italian kamikaze pilot, don't you?

Flight Officer Chicken Cacciatore

Sorry...

[Tom Houlihan]

On a more serious note, the bulk of my understanding of Japanese culture comes from reading and re-reading Shogun, by James Clavell. Granted, he's an Occidental, but he must have had some help with the Japanese cultural aspects of that story.

For those of you who want to read more about Samurai and their history, go find Osprey Publishing's site. There are some interesting articles in there, somewhere, about the Samurai.

Miss Saigon might be able to shed some light on the mysteries of the Orient, but I honestly don't think that Occidentals can fully comprehend a lot of the thought processes and mindsets of our Asian neighbors.

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Tom Houlihan

I'll take a demerit for this, but I can't help myself. Fatigue-induced delirium.

You guys know about the oldest living Italian kamikaze pilot, don't you?

Flight Officer Chicken Cacciatore

Sorry...

OK, start running.

[Geek44]

Don't laugh, but there was an elite Italian unit trained to use their own form of suicide torpedo/submarine. There is an Italeri kit available of the vehicle and a figure...this is about all I know about this.
I'm not too sure about the prevalence if ritual suicide among civilians. There is one scene from the movie 'Shogun' that I remember. Somehow, the main character played by Richard Chamberlain became a Samurai (at a time when the Japanese were killing any and all foreigners who found their way to Japan either by shipwreck or other way). He was provided with a number of household 'servants'. One day, he went out and killed a pheasant for food. The Western practice of hanging game for later use was not practiced in Japan. The pheasant began to decompose and smell. A favourite servant/retainer was tasked with removing the stinky bird because of its offensive odour, which he did. He then went off and killed himself for removing the bird without his master's permission. Suffice to say, Chamberlain's character was appalled. Keep in mind, the scene I've just described is fictional, but illustrative nonetheless. The idea that a Westerer (Jin Daro...foreign devil) was annointed as a Samurai seems a bit far fetched to me.
You know, last night I was thinking about this thread. The suicides on Saipan came to me as being worthy of mention too. I also thought that I'm a Westerner attempting to interpret Japanese culture for other Westerners but all I have is anecdotes and illustrations...I hope I can do both Members here and the Japanese, the justice you and they deserve. It strikes me that the Japanese during WW2 conquered more square miles than anybody in history before or since and they mostly did this on foot or bicycle. Me may have perceived them as 'brutal' but I think this feat is worthy of mention.

[Geek44]

'Empire of the Sun' by J.G. Ballard is an autobiographical work depicting the adventures of Western civilians interned by the Japanese in China. These people were treated with less respect and value than the Allied service people who were captured. Many died. Ballard describes a forced march between camps where emaciated people were starving and lying down to die on the road. The march reached a railway station and several Japanese officers were drinking water, sake and smoking out the front. Jim, who was the only male prisoner who wasn't too arrogant to try and understand the Japanese saved many lives. He approached the officers as bold as brass, bowed to them and demanded water. The officers were impressed by this twelve year old's balls...they gave him a bottle of water. At this, Jim drank the whole bottle himself, slammed the bottle down on the table and demanded more. More impressed by now, the officers allowed Jim and the rest of the internees access to the main water supply saving lives. Jim showed no fear, but had the respect to bow. He survived because of his attempts to understand the Japanese and to communicate with them in ways that they understood.

[MAGNA]

Suicide had long been an institution in Japan. Partly customary but also linked to family pride and duty. Customary as in Imperial duty. EG Husbands and wives committing mutual suicide on the death of an Emperor to show their families loyalty.

Redemption of humiliation of any form could be made by ritual suicide. It was to be decided by the individual as to whether it was necessary - another strange notion to Westerners. EG The 1930 London Naval Conference. Limits on submarines and auxiliary craft were agreed on. One Japanese staff officer took exception to the limits and decided Japan had been humiliated. He committed ritual suicide in the sleeping compartment of a train.

What is perceived by us as the wrong thing or even a crime is the opposite under this system. The person or persons committing ritual suicide are absolved of any blame for anything and no questions arise as to their motives. It is the complete opposite to most other ideologies although we are seeing it with many terrorist activities where the perpetrator goes straight to heaven.