Günter Grass admits SS Past and more

[Jim O]

From New York Times today:

PARIS, Aug. 16 — In novels, plays, essays and newspaper interviews, Günter Grass has often told Germans what they did not want to hear: about their history, about their politics, even about themselves. For many on the left, since the 1960’s he has come to represent the conscience of a country with much to lament.

After winning the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1999, he explained his obsession with Germany’s past. “There were extenuating circumstances,” he told the Swedish Academy, “mountains of rubble and cadavers, fruit of the womb of German history. The more I shoveled, the more it grew. It simply could not be ignored.”

But now, at 78, Mr. Grass has stunned Germany by confessing that he too has a buried past. In an interview with a leading German newspaper, he revealed that in the final months of World War II, when he was 17, he was drafted by the Waffen SS, the military branch of the notorious Nazi corps that played an important role in the Holocaust and other atrocities.

The reaction in Germany to this admission has been one of disbelief and indignation: not that a teenager should have been recruited into the Waffen SS as Hitler struggled to avoid defeat, but that the country’s most prominent writer should have hidden this while hectoring others for their political and social sins from the comfort of the moral high ground...

The entire article can be seen at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/17/ar...ss&oref=slogin and is well worth reading.

Let's discusss this. Opinions and comments please.

[DDLDSDB]

I personally, don't think it is all that newsworthy. He was one man out of how many who were in th SS during WW2. They served their country. Most could give a hoot about politics and such. You will have some who have nothing bad to say about ANY branch of service they served in. Some will say the opposite for whatever reasons. And then again,"The NewYork Times"......

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by DDLDSDB

I personally, don't think it is all that newsworthy. He was one man out of how many who were in th SS during WW2. They served their country. Most could give a hoot about politics and such. You will have some who have nothing bad to say about ANY branch of service they served in. Some will say the opposite for whatever reasons. And then again,"The NewYork Times"......

But this is a man who has spoken up about Germany's guilt and been a "conscience". He's even won a Nobel Prize. Now it turns out that he LIED about his past and that he was more complicit that what he has led people to believe all these years. It's not the having "served" that is the issue, as that is unstandable, but rather it's the repeated lies about it while berating others for having done similar. This is not an "ordinary citizen" but an outspoken critic who has intentionally put himself in the limelight through his writings.

To me that is newsworthy, and also it is quite sad.

[Lancer44]

I already voiced my opinion in WWII in Colour and I repeat it here.

The whole story is typical sensation for summer holidays in Europe when magazines in towns doesn't sell well, because half of Germany is in Spain, Greece or Canary Islands.

Gunther grass born in 1927, was drafted to the army in November 1944. 8-th of May 1945 he become POW in american hands until April 1946. He never tried to hide that he was in Waffen SS 10-th Panzer Division "Frundsberg". His papers were all the time in Wehrmachtauskunftsstelle - main archiv where are documents about just everyone which served in German armed forces. He was gunner - loader probably in Sturmgeschutze.
After unitary training he could join his unit not earlier than January 1945

Lets have a look what his division was doing.

27-31 December, 1944: Division in reserve, OB West begins preparations for assembling the division to stage for Operation ZAHNARZT behind First Army lines.

3 January, 1945: 10. SS-Panzer-Regiment "Langemarck" expands to two battalions, including one PanzerV (Panther) battalion with four companies and one Panzer IV battalion with three companies.

7 January, 1945: Division in reserve, staging for Operation ZAHNARZT.

January, 1945: Division slated for deployment east of the Haguenau Forest along the Rhine River to link up with Army Group Oberrhein's forces in the Gambsheim bridgehead.

10/11 January, 1945: General Blaskowitz beings assembling the division at Lauterbourg.
16 January, 1945: Division spearheads the final German drive south from Lauterbourg through Seltz, 2 miles west of the Rhine River, in an attempt to seize the Gambsheim bridgehead held by Task Force Linden (US).

24 January, 1945: Division 4 miles west of Souffelnheim, in the Hagenau Forest.

16 February, 1945: Division attacks to the southwest, from Berlin, as part of SS-Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner's 11. SS Panzer-Armee, against Marshal Zhukov's First Byelorussian Front.

March, 1945: Defense of Stettin Harbor, battles against the Red Army for the Altdamm Bridge across the Oder River.

22 March, 1945: Begin rest and refit at Stettin, Poland.

27 March, 1945: Rest and refit completed; Division entrains at Grambow Station.

28 March, 1945: Reconaissance battalion entrains at Grambow Station.

31 March, 1945: Division arrives at Briesen, Germany and division HQ is established at Wilmersdorf, Germany (Sachsen).

2 April, 1945: Division Staff reaches Lichtenau.

8 April, 1945: Division sent to rest and refit south of Lauban, east of G–rlitz, division staff moves to Heidersdorf.

16 April, 1945: Hitler directs the division to relocate to Cottbus- Spremberg, assigns it to reserve of Armeegruppe ³Center². Soviet drive on Berlin begins.

17 April, 1945: Reconaissance battalion reaches Cottbus, remainder of division arrives at Spremberg. Part of the division attacked at Gross Osning; SS PzRgt 10 and I/SS PzGrRgt 21 attempt unsuccessful counterattack.

18 April, 1945: Division HQ re-established at Roitz. Division split into three groups; 1) 10.SS.PzAfkl.Abt., located south of Cottbus, 2) logistical and out of fuel elements of the division, located at Bautzen, and 3) the bulk of the division, including SS.PzGr.Rgts.21 and 22, located northwest of Spremberg. IV/SS.Pz.Art.Rgt.10 moves from Madzow to Slamen, south of Spremberg, and again moves to Heinrichsdorf. The remainder of SS.Pz.Art.Rgt.10 moves to Kochsdorf.

19 April, 1945: Division encircled at Spremberg with the 344.Volksgrenadier- Division and the Führer-Begleit-Division.

21 April, 1945: Breakout from the Spremberg Pocket begins along the Jessen- Stradow road; Bulk of the division is surrounded at Kausche within hours. SS.Pz.Art.Rgt.10 moves to Gosda.

22 April, 1945: Remainder of the division passes through Wiesenthal and Geisendorf as breakout from Kausche is effected. Survivors bypass Petershain, proceeding northwest in an effort to reach the Elbe River.

23 April, 1945: Remainder of the division travels along Autobahn 3 to the forest between Wormlage and Saalhausen.

25 April, 1945: Remnants of the division pass Düllingen.

26 April, 1945: Remnants of the division arrive at Baerwalde between Dresden and Grossenhain.

3 May, 1945: Remnants of the division move to Moritzburg to avoid encirclement.

5 May, 1945: Remnants of the division ordered to reassemble west of Dresden.

6 May, 1945: A column of the division is attacked by Soviet armor near Gampitz.

7 May, 1945: Remnants of the division destroy 5 Soviet T-34 tanks enroute to Sudetenland.

9 May, 1945: Remnants of the division attacked by Soviet armor near Brüx (Most), Czechoslovakia as they proceed to Klingenthal.

10 to 12 May, 1945: Division's remnants attempt unsuccessful reassembly, and disband on their own in an effort to make their way west individually. A number of survivors, who are not captured by either Soviet or Czech forces enroute, surrendur to the US 102nd Infantry Division at Tangermünde, on the Elbe River.

The best proof than Gunther Grass did not committed any war crimes is fact that Americans employed him in US Air Force kitchen. POWs employed in such positions were carefully screened - fanatical nazis could poison US soldiers.

End of story. 18 years old boy drafted to the army… Could he say "no" or "I don't like Waffen SS"? I don't need to explain this on our Forum.

General public and idiots like Polish ex-president Walesa, (He himself admitted that he never read even one book in his entire life), present "duck" -president Kaczynski and his clone brother, are making big sensation from nothing.

At least for me, Gunther Grass will always remain a great writer and respectable German.

Lancer44

P.S.

"Günter Grass thought for a long time how he could get the most possible people to buy his new memoir," wrote columnist Hans Zippert in Die Welt. "Then fortunately it occurred to him that he had been a member of the Waffen SS but hadn't trumpeted it before. A real sensation!"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworl...844755,00.html

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Lancer44

End of story. 18 years old boy drafted to the army… Could he say "no" or "I don't like Waffen SS"? I don't need to explain this on our Forum...

At least for me, Gunther Grass will always remain a great writer and respectable German.

I'd agree with all of that. He was drafted and he had no choice, and he has been a great writer. But to wait until he's is old to correct a lie about such a subject, and one of his own creation no less, does speak to his character. And that makes it newsworthy. Does it lessen my overall opinion? A little today. Probably not much in the long run.

[Jim O]

Here is part of an editorial from today's New York Times which perhaps summarizes it well. The full text can be seen at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/18/op...ss&oref=slogin.

We see two critical questions here. First, does this revelation undermine the sharp criticisms Grass has leveled over the years against Germany and the United States? Grass’s personal probity has been seriously damaged, but that does nothing to mitigate the very real crimes of thought and deed he has railed against. The second question is more important. Does this revelation annul or impair Grass’s work? To us, his novels have dramatized the problem of the conscience in history — and especially the battering it took in the 20th century — better than the work of almost any other writer. Everything he has written will now be reread with an ironic eye, but the weight of the work will stand unchanged. With this revelation, Günter Grass has become, in a sense, his own final chapter.

Ironic, yes that's a good word.

[Dani]

Originally Posted by Lancer44

IThe whole story is typical sensation for summer holidays in Europe when magazines in towns doesn't sell well, because half of Germany is in Spain, Greece or Canary Islands.

OFF TOPIC: For sure! Check Graf Zeppelin's case.

[Klaus]

I just read yesterday a poll in which 87% in Germany wanted him too give back his Nobel-price. This sickens me.

[Lancer44]

Originally Posted by Klaus

I just read yesterday a poll in which 87% in Germany wanted him too give back his Nobel-price. This sickens me.

Gunther Grass is holding title of "Honourable Citizen of Gdansk - Danzig".
Yesterday in a poll ordered by Mer of Gdansk 72% of respondents were against taking this honour from him.
Internet polls all over Poland are currently 77% against suggested by Polish politicians move towards Gunther Grass.

Polish intelectuals reminded public, that Grass was always a great Poland's friend and Eurioean Unity mentor.

Polish politicians from governing party PiS are using Grass affair in electoral campaign... Sickening and short sighted moves!

Gdañszczanie za obywatelstwem dla Grassa

[Klaus]

Seems to me like only Germany has a problem with that. Again. But using it for politics is weak. Are they so desperate for electonal topics in poland?