Sheriff Joe Arpaio

[Tom Houlihan]

Hmmm... I guess I should have caught that question, since I am a deputy sheriff here in Michigan!

I don't believe there's anything in Europe quite like this system. The above answers, though, are pretty much on the mark.

[barrett.t]

They are human beings and should be treated with respect. Let the first person who has commited no crime on this forum condem those who break the law. Those poor bastards just got caught. I do not mind that Sherrif commenting on the british legal system. I do not agree with him I think that he is too harsh and uncaring. Although whats wrong with sleeping in a tent in that heat I love to. If his prisoners talked to him the way he talks to them he probably beat them up.

[Tom Houlihan]

I work in a jail, with people just like them. Trust me, he's not being harsh.

If you want to criticize him, spend a week working in a jail, so you know what you're talking about.

[gary g stevens]

How he runs his department is the business of the people of his county.He must be doing A good job otherwise he wouldnt be re elected.I saw a show on his jail.The inmates are clothed ,fed and given medical care.Some people outside of jail dont even get that!

[Jim O]

His jail recently had their own version of "jailhouse idol" or something like that. The prizes were McDonald's burgers and he was one of the judges.

[barrett.t]

I ' ve evaluated what you have said tom however I still do not agree. I know what I know because I have worked with prisoners in the probabtion service. My niece is also a policewoman so it sort of runs in the family. If you kick a dog it will probably bite you. The same goes for human beings, the real issue in America, is the same as here in Britain Taxes. People want to live in a fair and just society but they don't want to pay for it. The years of conditioning that people from poor familes have could take years to eradicate concerning stealing and so on. That takes time commitment, patience and most of all money. Lots of prisoners are mentally ill, when's the last time you sat around thinking of killing and slicing someone to death. It's ok if you have money but if you are poor and uneducated you sell drugs. Let's think what about rodney king how do you justify that. Warders in an english prison were worse than the prisoners they were selling and dealing in drugs. Everyone I have ever met if they are honest have broken the law, even lawmen. There's a prison in Turkey where the people are treated with repect and kindness. They have a very low re-offending rate. This is in a country where most of the prison system is very brutal. Though I will concede one point life should mean life if you are a serial killer. I watched one American proggramme where this guy got of on a technicality. He served twenty years and he was suspected of killing two hundred women. That was not justice that was a farce and I felt so much for the families of the bereaved. They should spend life in prison but treated with respect and kindness and not brutalised by themselves and other prisoners.Taking away coffee is mean and spiteful. He is just like any politician pandering to his voting public. I would have more respect for him if he truly said what he thought and not what the politician inside him says to do.

[Tom Houlihan]

I completely respect your right to disagree with me, but I am not going to get into a pissing contest over what is "spiteful," and what is not in regard to dealing with prisoners.

I will, however, post something that was in our local paper. A few weeks back, there was an article wherein several former prisoners complained about conditions in the jail. If you'd like, you can read it here:

The Oakland Press: Local News

A few days later, there was a letter to the editor. I couldn't save it, but it just so happened that the night I read it, I was involved in a similar discussion over on Feldgrau. I typed the whole thing in. Here is the citizen's response:

CRIMINALS HAVE NO RIGHT TO GRIPE ABOUT JAIL CONDITIONS
I read with great disgust and anger the comments from prisoners who are disappointed with the lack of dignity afforded them in the Oakland County Jail.

Who cares? You are criminals. You forfeited your rights when you decided to commit your crimes and totally disregard the standards set by society.

Where was your concern for my dignity when you broke into my home three years ago while my wife and I were working and contributing to society? Where was your compassion when you were rifling her jewelry box and stealing her class ring and other valuables?

How much did you care as you put my hard-earned money in your pockets to go score some dope? The only thing that stopped your crime was my coming home and surprising you, at which point you fled. How about the cashier working at the convenience store who gets a pistol shoved in his face so you can get a few bucks and some cigarettes? Where's his dignity?

What about the little old lady who you hit over the head for her Social Security check? Or, the family that gets killed because you can't control yourself, and drive when you are drunk? (NOTE: This happened. A guy with mulitple drunk driving charges took out a woman and her two sons, leaving Dad alone. I sat on this yahoo in the hospital. Sh*tbag...) Or, the child who is molested by some perverted animal?

One comment from a convict was that "dogs at the pound get treated better." You're damn right they do. The dogs at the pound did not do anything wrong. Most of them will be euthanized because there are not enough homes for them all. We need to look at the same program for you because you provide no positive contribution to society, just misery.

If you'd like, the Feldgrau thread is here:
Feldgrau.net :: View topic - When is something going to be done about this?

There are quite a few things about the US Criminal Justice system that irk me. It irritates the sh*t out of me that some of these prisoners make out better in some respects than law-abiding, working citizens.

My personal opinion is that if you go to jail or prison, you should hate the experience. There should be nothing "nice" about it. It should be such a miserable experience that you never want to go back.

[barrett.t]

Tom I agree with the compassionate drive that you have and understanding you have for the victims. I also understand you wanting revenge especially when old ladies get hit over the head. My first response to crimes against the vunerable is anger and then fantasies of revenge "do unto them what they do unto you." But does this solve the problem? No it never has in my experience and maybe not in yours. I think that non - violent prisoners should be trained in a skill to make goods. Or the less risky prisoners allowed out in the day to work or learn a skill and to go back to prison at night. The money paid from the profits of their goods and training then would have to compensate the victims and pay for thier upkeep.Also when they got out they might not return to crime if they had a skill. The very violent would be kept in small prisons where they could not intimidate and rape other people. Inmates teach each other how to commit more crimes.The very violent and others would be made to go to group therapy every day. The confrontational kind. They would be looked after by tough men who would not take their shit who would be paid well and hand picked. Because the very violent possibly were taught this behaviour by one of their parents and are I think mentally ill. If they worked and were respectful and polite they could come out of their cells if not they could spend the whole of thier prison sentence in it. It would be thier behaviour that woud dictate how they were treated. If they had serious attitude they could be taken back to court for more time.Then and only then the victims and a judge would deem whether they would be allowed back into society. Both would have to agree and prisoners would have to meet their victims to see the effect on them.Those people who habitually committ crimes would lose thier civil rights these should be a privilage and not a right. Then the police could harrass them all day and all night. They could be picked up for any reason. Those who tried to con the system would be kept in forever until they genuinly relented but worked in priofitable employment. Those who had drug problems would go into drug rehabilitation centres for the duration of their sentences. Again put into profitable employment when fit enough to compensate for the damage of their crimes. Tom I do repect what you do as a profession in england the third group for victims of violence are the police. you are literally on the front line taking abuse of all kinds. The penalties for attacking the police should be very severe indeed. But I think if we allow these poeple to be brutalised in a prison system do we not become as bad as them? Should we as individuals in a democratic society try to teach those who do not respect themselves thats why they do not respect others to respect themselves and others. This in my opinion is taught by example and if we give into our feelings of revenge then I think that we are no better than them. I do not know that I am right I just think so. Thankyou I have enjoyed the debate.

[Tom Houlihan]

Originally Posted by barrett.t

I also understand you wanting revenge especially when old ladies get hit over the head.

In truth, it's not revenge. However, they've committed a crime, and their incarceration should be unpleasant. It's like grounding your teenager and sending them to their room, but they have books, a TV, a computer, and a phone. Far too many of them live better in jail than they do at home. They get treated better because we're responsible for them. Far be it from them to show that much responsibility for themselves when they're out.

I think that non - violent prisoners should be trained in a skill to make goods. Or the less risky prisoners allowed out in the day to work or learn a skill and to go back to prison at night. The money paid from the profits of their goods and training then would have to compensate the victims and pay for thier upkeep.Also when they got out they might not return to crime if they had a skill.

In theory, I agree. However, just in our county jail, I've seen too many come back that have been through various training programs. Flat out, they just don't give a sh*t. They go through the motions while they're in here, to look good, then get out and do the same trash all over again. If it worked properly, I'd be all for these programs. Far too often, though, they're a waste of time.
Most jails, ours included, have a work-release program. Inmates are allowed out to go to their jobs. This is good, because it allows them to still earn money, keeping their houses, cars, jobs, etc. W-R inmates also pay rent to be in the program, which is based on their salary. We had one guy who worked in a hospital making beaucoup bucks that paid like $300/week. Most of them, though, pay the base rate of $80.
There is also a victim's compensation fund, but I don't know too much about it, or how effective it is.
Still, even with opportunities like this, we see the same faces coming back. If there were more of a deterrent, then maybe they'd stay out.

Tom I do repect what you do as a profession in england the third group for victims of violence are the police. you are literally on the front line taking abuse of all kinds. The penalties for attacking the police should be very severe indeed.

Thank you.

But I think if we allow these poeple to be brutalised in a prison system do we not become as bad as them?

I think this is where we really begin to differ. It depends on one's definition of "brutalisation." Is it brutal to restrict coffee, candy, and garbage like that? Is it necessary for life? Is it brutal to make the inmates wear colored clothing, so they stand out when they go out on work details? As far as I'm concerned, if your self-esteem is damaged because of the stigmatization of wearing jail garb in view of your friends and neighbors, that falls under the deterrent heading! If that embarrasses you, maybe you won't commit the crime again!!
On the flip side, I don't agree with visiting physical violence on anyone, unless it's required by a violent situation, such as a riot, or a physically aggressive inmate. In that case, then it's Katie-bar-the-door IMHO. Understand, while I will not go out of my way to be "nice" to the inmates in my charge, neither will I go out of my way to harass them. If they act like adults, I treat them as adults. If they act like juveniles, or just idiots in general, then I'll treat them as such. I will not pick on them just because I have a badge, and they don't.

Thankyou I have enjoyed the debate.

Although it's gotten my blood pressure up a few times, I have to. I must have, I came back even when I said I wouldn't! I'll admit, though, it hasn't actually degenerated to a pissing contest. You've been quite reasonable, even if I disagree with a lot of what you've written. But, I don't disagree with all of it.

Take care,
Tom

[Troy Tempest]

Hi Tom, what's the deal with electing your sherrif though? We don't elect any police or judges, they're all state government employees, so why isn't that the case over there? Should the local judge or sherrif be the result of a popularity contest? Couldn't that leave the prospect of corruption open, in a small town maybe, where one guy, and I use this analogy very loosely, like Boss Hogg, might be the big man in town, wouldn't someone like that have a lot of power that wouldn't be available to him if the positions of influence, like sherrifs and judges were state employees and thus out of local control or interference through money and or power? You have state police anyway don't you, so why don't they make all police in the state, state police?