What we are fighting for?

[barrett.t]

“I don't understand the free governments leniency towards people driven to exclude and divide others because they don't meet their religious standards. ” In countries where Sharia law is practised the use of torture to get confessions and to keep the population quiet, is common. Plus sadistic treatment is used all over the Middle East. Iran is the same. Many are kept in prisons some for years without charge how depressing and scary that must be? Especially if you are innocent and even if you are not. In Iran and Saudi Arabia there have been over 225 executions. In Pakistan the blasphemy laws were used to persecute members of religious minorities such as Christians. Some think it a good thing and even holy to murder people of other faiths. At least 446 people were sentenced to death in Pakistan alone. Women sometimes are given to other families to settle disputes without their consent, possibly to be used as slaves either domestically or sexually. Sex outside marriage is forbidden and punishable. By tribal communities using Sharia law as a justification to be cruel to people.

They call it a compassionate religion but the truth is that the practise of it, is not. The Saudis who are our allies, flog children for flirting because they think its immoral to be a child and do what children learn to do all over the world. They use abusive behaviour within prisons to control the population.

Many women all over the region are treated badly and discriminated against. In many of the countries men tend get away with beatings and rape because many see them as men’s property. Racism is rife many Philipinos in Saudi are treated shockingly and the same to for the Kurds in Iran. Minorities are bullied all over this region because as usual they’re the smallest group and easiest to pick on. To vent anger on for frustrations at being poor or anything that comes to mind. Women have to veil up because in reality men cannot control their sexual desires or so it seems. What does this have to do with the women? They are men’s feelings they should be responsible for them not the women. The method of execution in some countries is stoning, how cruel. They also chop the hands off poor people who steal 7 in Saudi Arabia 2 in Iran and one person had their eyes gouged out, is this the kindness that they are on about? A member of the Saudi royal family ran somebody over drunk in Germany once; of course he was a responsible citizen and faced the music. Only kidding, he claimed diplomatic immunity, funny thing though he never got flogged when he got back to Saudi for drinking, which is against their religion and punishable by being whipped. Am I just a cynic or did he get off because he was a member of the royal family and his family is richer than Bill Gates? No I must be imagining it? Is there one rule for the rich and one for the poor surely not?

There are honour killings as well, one member of the family feels angry and ashamed at what one member has done to the honour of the family. Which in reality is they care too much what they think others are thinking about them. They then kill that member to restore their self-respect. Again what does the victim have to do with the murderers feelings of self-esteem? If I killed a member of my family every time I felt ashamed or angry by what they did. I would have run out of family about twenty years ago. If gays are caught in most of these countries they are executed. This is just not tolerated homosexuals are murdered for being themselves. In Kuwait, remember the country we fought in for freedom over a decade ago. They imprison and harass and bully human rights protesters, some liberty. What courage to stand up and say what you believe in, in these places, true valour.

[Roddoss72]

Salutations Barrett.T

Well I am an Anglo-Saxon Muslim and have just come from my Friday prayers and we have collected monies for the Cyclone victims in Burma and Earthquake victims in China, i am proud of being a Muslim.

You may not be aware of a little blight on Chrisindom call the Inquistions that were perpetuated in Catholic Dominated Europe and Central America, plus the Catholic Crusades in the Middle East.

The Inquisition had some stuff like burning at the stake, dipping in boiling oil, flagulation where by people were flogged with implents that were designed to rips shreads of human flesh off the bone, and many other gratuitus deaths. In the end no real figure was calculated but it is estimated that over 150,000 people died during the inquisitions.

You also mentioned Women in Suadia Arabia and the like about discrimination, well these things are practiced in the largest democracy in the world INDIA and it is a Hindu nation where the caste system is strictly adheared too. And i can assure you that honour killings and retribution are carried out by the Hindu's in India.

You mentioned Executions, well how many blacks are on death row in the USA.

But above all what is wrong here is that you have fallen into the same trap.

The word of God (whatever God you worship) is taught as a message of peace, but when you mix in interpretations of religion that's when some go to extremes, If you bothered to read the Quoran you will read that women are our mothers and are to be respected, That is the teaching of Allah, but Men corrupt the message.

Regrard

Roddoss72

[Jim O]

Roddross72,

This is a touchy subject and is just about at the line for this site. However, I will leave it here as this is the "Rants and Raves" section.

As long as you brought them up however, the Crusades and the Inquisitions were centuries ago. Women cannot leave their homes without a male family member in Saudi Arabia (the home of Mecca and Medina) in 2008. Women must be covered completely outside the home, and they cannot drive a car today.

While the US is clearly a Christian nation (separation of Church and State notwithstanding), Muslims and Jews are free to practice their faiths publicly. Jews are not even allowed to enter the Kingdom. It is prohibited by Saudi law. Few nations governed by Sharia offer true freedoms to "People of the Book" despite the Qur'an's teachings of tolerance of such people. And even when they do offer some amount of liberty to Christians, Jews are often not given the same. Jewish communities existed in Baghdad, Tehran, and Damascus for perhaps 2000 years but their are only a few Jews left in those places, generally those to old and infirm to emigrate. The synagogues are in mothballs in those places, if even they still stand.

You pick on the numbers of Blacks on death rows in the US. Numbers do not exist in a vacuum. Look carefully at who were the victims in those crimes. Most also were Black. There was a time when the death penalty was applied very infrequently in the victim was not White. Without getting into a debate about the social situation and problems of minorities in America, I would invite you for a visit to my area. I'll take you to the 'hood. I live in a state that has a "shall issue" policy on concealed weapons carry. I have a permit and I do carry a handgun. I won't even need to take you to the worst places to have you see drug slinging on porches and in schoolyards, and for you likely to need to change your pants, or at least wanting to get back in the car.

The likelihood of a jury recommending death may well be higher if the guilty party is Black, but there are large numbers of White men on death rows as well. Part of the reason is that states with the largest death row populations (California, Florida, Texas) also have large Black populations and high crime rates.

In California, a death sentence is most likely to be a life sentence. They currently have 660 inmates on death row and have performed a total of 13 executions since capital punishment was reinstated in 1976. Is LWOP (life without parole) too harsh for murder?



US death row population peaked in 2000 and is now 7-8% lower than at that time. Given that many more death sentences are handed out than are ever actually carried out, this must mean only one thing. These inmates are getting old and are dying in prison of natural causes.

The largest per capita number of executions in 2007 were performed in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Libya. What do they all have in common?

In July 2007, father of two Ja’Far Kiani was stoned to death for adultery in Iran.

In November 2007, Mustafa Ibrahim, an Egyptian national, was beheaded in Saudi Arabia for the practice of sorcery.

I'm not meaning to poke at Islam. You opened the door by poking at Christianity's past foibles. If you want to separate how Men corrupt the message, then we are free to have this discussion on both sides. I wish more people saw a message of peace instead of the practice of terrorists who strap bombs on children and kill them and other innocents. I wish that Hamas, an Islamic organization supported by Iran, an Islamic state, would renounce its desire to destroy the State of Israel. These are real world events occurring now, not historical events like the Crusades and Inquisitions that occurred centuries ago.

By the way, I am not a Christian and I'm not a big fan of the death penalty. I am White. My closest not-family member friend is a Black Christian minister. He thinks that I am way too liberal in my views. That gives you a background on me.

[Roddoss72]

Originally Posted by Jim O

Roddross72,

This is a touchy subject and is just about at the line for this site. However, I will leave it here as this is the "Rants and Raves" section.

As long as you brought them up however, the Crusades and the Inquisitions were centuries ago. Women cannot leave their homes without a male family member in Saudi Arabia (the home of Mecca and Medina) in 2008. Women must be covered completely outside the home, and they cannot drive a car today.

While the US is clearly a Christian nation (separation of Church and State notwithstanding), Muslims and Jews are free to practice their faiths publicly. Jews are not even allowed to enter the Kingdom. It is prohibited by Saudi law. Few nations governed by Sharia offer true freedoms to "People of the Book" despite the Qur'an's teachings of tolerance of such people. And even when they do offer some amount of liberty to Christians, Jews are often not given the same. Jewish communities existed in Baghdad, Tehran, and Damascus for perhaps 2000 years but their are only a few Jews left in those places, generally those to old and infirm to emigrate. The synagogues are in mothballs in those places, if even they still stand.

You pick on the numbers of Blacks on death rows in the US. Numbers do not exist in a vacuum. Look carefully at who were the victims in those crimes. Most also were Black. There was a time when the death penalty was applied very infrequently in the victim was not White. Without getting into a debate about the social situation and problems of minorities in America, I would invite you for a visit to my area. I'll take you to the 'hood. I live in a state that has a "shall issue" policy on concealed weapons carry. I have a permit and I do carry a handgun. I won't even need to take you to the worst places to have you see drug slinging on porches and in schoolyards, and for you likely to need to change your pants, or at least wanting to get back in the car.

The likelihood of a jury recommending death may well be higher if the guilty party is Black, but there are large numbers of White men on death rows as well. Part of the reason is that states with the largest death row populations (California, Florida, Texas) also have large Black populations and high crime rates.

In California, a death sentence is most likely to be a life sentence. They currently have 660 inmates on death row and have performed a total of 13 executions since capital punishment was reinstated in 1976. Is LWOP (life without parole) too harsh for murder?



US death row population peaked in 2000 and is now 7-8% lower than at that time. Given that many more death sentences are handed out than are ever actually carried out, this must mean only one thing. These inmates are getting old and are dying in prison of natural causes.

The largest per capita number of executions in 2007 were performed in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Libya. What do they all have in common?

In July 2007, father of two Ja’Far Kiani was stoned to death for adultery in Iran.

In November 2007, Mustafa Ibrahim, an Egyptian national, was beheaded in Saudi Arabia for the practice of sorcery.

I'm not meaning to poke at Islam. You opened the door by poking at Christianity's past foibles. If you want to separate how Men corrupt the message, then we are free to have this discussion on both sides. I wish more people saw a message of peace instead of the practice of terrorists who strap bombs on children and kill them and other innocents. I wish that Hamas, an Islamic organization supported by Iran, an Islamic state, would renounce its desire to destroy the State of Israel. These are real world events occurring now, not historical events like the Crusades and Inquisitions that occurred centuries ago.

By the way, I am not a Christian and I'm not a big fan of the death penalty. I am White. My closest not-family member friend is a Black Christian minister. He thinks that I am way too liberal in my views. That gives you a background on me.

Salutations Jim O

That is why religion is such a touchy subject, and as always it can result in it going down the road of nastiness, but i do respect your opinion though.

Regards

Roddoss72

[Geek44]

And this is why I'm not religious...despite having strong 'spiritual' beliefs. I've never understood the need for a 'middle-man' (priest/Imam/whatever) in order to have a meaningful relationship with 'God' however one interprets that term. A strong moral framework is not dependent on strong religious convictions as has been claimed by some less intelligent folks I've discussed this with over the years.
A lot of Muslims in my town in the northern suburbs and I lived among them for twelve years. Turks, Iraqis, Lebanese mostly. Great neighbours and nice folks to deal with buying bread, milk and the odd kebab. barrett.t is right about a lot of what he says above...but that's not the 'religion' per se doing the immoral stuff. It's power crazed criminals USING the faith and laws that are several hundred years old (and outmoded as 'barbaric' today) to consolidate and keep their power. I don't believe we non-Muslims are burning witches (women with power) anymore but I could be wrong. It's a mistake to allow the actions of creeps who are Muslims to collour your view. Go meet some ordinary folks (who probably also abhor the violence) before deciding.
Take our friend Roddoss as an example. Always polite and always ready with a 'salutation'. I'll bet he'd give you the shirt off his back. Suffering teaches us compassion unless we succumb to the 'dark' alternative...hatred. There's ALWAYS a choice between light and dark.
Peace.

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Geek44

Suffering teaches us compassion unless we succumb to the 'dark' alternative...hatred. There's ALWAYS a choice between light and dark.
Peace.

[Aussie Dave]

Religion isn't the problem itself.

It only becomes a problem when the extremists twist their religion to conform with their own personal views and agenda.



Most religions have extremists and most of the extremists are as bad as each other professing hate and intolerance towards others who don't follow them.

For example the christian "right to life" anti-abortion movement has a few followers (Nutjobs.) that think nothing of targeting doctors and staff who work there with violence, or blow-up/burn down a clinic that performs abortions.

Unfortunately with Islam in the middle east, regional culture plays a large part in just how extreme the extremists are.
Lets face it, much of the middle east is a war zone and growing up with injustice, murder and cruelty are a day to day fact of life there for many.
(I'm not making excuses for them, or condoning their actions at all, just playing the devil's advocate and pointing out a fact.)


Cheers,
Dave

[Roddoss72]

Originally Posted by cyberia

Salutations All

I'll complete your training, use the dark side Son.

Regards

Roddoss72

p.s. I'm sorry but i had to bring some humour into this.

[Geek44]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

Salutations All

I'll complete your training, use the dark side Son.

Regards

Roddoss72

p.s. I'm sorry but i had to bring some humour into this.

NEVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aussie Dave]

Originally Posted by Geek44

Suffering teaches us compassion unless we succumb to the 'dark' alternative...hatred. There's ALWAYS a choice between light and dark.
Peace.

Don't you really mean...

"Suffering teaches us compassion it does, but beware, hatred, anger the 'dark' side are they."
"Always a choice between light and dark there is, Hmmm..."

Cheers,
Dave