English Justice? - Or lack of it?

[Geek44]

Originally Posted by cyberia

The point of contention here is not if all juvenile murders should be punished as adults to the fullest extent of the law, but should all adolescent murders be granted the same blanket absolution upon reaching the legal age?

I agree that a degree of stupidity and recklessness accompanies the adolescent thought process. And I'm sure many of us here have some incident from our younger days we both regret and are thankful does not haunt our adult records.

I know I do.

However, I'm sure we can both agree that the murder of another human being transcends most other youthful offences.

Adults are tried for homicide by degree.

Should a child who steals a father's gun and then on impulse shoots and kills a playmate without malice be punished to the same degree as one who carefully plots and carries out a revenge or thrill murder?

In my opinion no.

Nor should both be granted full automatic clemency for two decisively different motives simply because the calender turns.

Children who commit murder do so as individuals. The crimes they commit and to what degree need to be judged on an individual, case by case basis.

Hanging teenagers for the "crime" of homosexuality is one end of the extreme.

Releasing someone capable of calculated murder back into society for no other reason than he or she has reached what some consider the magical age of reason is the other.

Indeed. Medically speaking, the brain isn't fully grown until around the age of twenty-five for most people. One of the last areas to finish growing is that which houses impulse control. Hence kids think they're bullet proof.
As with the exhibition I mentioned above...it's a case by case thing. I'm still amazed at the number of people ringing into radio stations and writing to newspapers over this with cries of 'pervert', 'pedophile' and 'hang the bastard'. Not one caller or correspondent had actually seen the images. Every one had been tagged and bagged as 'evidence' and unavailable to the public.
These are issues with high emotional content. They're difficult to make a call on.

[Wolster]

Originally Posted by Geek44

Fair enough Wolster...I wasn't very clear.
There's been an art exhibition closed here in the last fortnight and some photos have been seized. Apparently they depict naked girls of around twelve and thirteen in strictly non-sexual contexts. They're portraits.
The hoo-ha has centred around the girls' alleged inability to give consent to the photographer because 'they are too young to appreciate the full ramifications of their actions'. My statement above was pointing to the 'inability' of these 'victims' but at the same time, the 'perpetrators' who killed Jamie Bulger, who were younger than the photographed girls are supposedly fully aware and able to grasp the enormity of what they were doing.
Again I say nothing can excuse the crime, but I see a double standard. Not in you specifically, just in us as a society.

OK, understand now!! That thing you said about the brain and 25, there is a good chance I buck that trend!!

[Geek44]

Funny how we get to work destroying the brain almost as soon as we can.

What amazed me the most about the Bulger case was how I reacted to it. As I said, when it happened, I barely gave it a thought...just more of the usual to me at the time. Certainly it was an unusual crime in that the perpetrators were so young. When I was reminded of it last year, and read the details...it totally horrified me... because I had a son of the same age as young Jamie. I thought about it a lot, talked about it with people I knew and on more than one occasion, cried over it.
Anger and disgust don't really cover the depth of feeling I had over it. If they'd paraded the criminals in front of me I would have happily killed them. Until I spoke about it to a woman I know who works for legal aid...which is free legal representation for people who can't afford it. She pointed out to me that these two kids suffered awful abuse at the hands of their parents. In an atmosphere like that, pain and suffering become 'normal'. That's how life is for these people. The abused all too often become abusers.
I just felt that my own anger and thirst for blood had been a little hasty.
Peace.

[cyberia]

Originally Posted by Geek44

Funny how we get to work destroying the brain almost as soon as we can.

What amazed me the most about the Bulger case was how I reacted to it. As I said, when it happened, I barely gave it a thought...just more of the usual to me at the time. Certainly it was an unusual crime in that the perpetrators were so young. When I was reminded of it last year, and read the details...it totally horrified me... because I had a son of the same age as young Jamie. I thought about it a lot, talked about it with people I knew and on more than one occasion, cried over it.
Anger and disgust don't really cover the depth of feeling I had over it. If they'd paraded the criminals in front of me I would have happily killed them. Until I spoke about it to a woman I know who works for legal aid...which is free legal representation for people who can't afford it. She pointed out to me that these two kids suffered awful abuse at the hands of their parents. In an atmosphere like that, pain and suffering become 'normal'. That's how life is for these people. The abused all too often become abusers.
I just felt that my own anger and thirst for blood had been a little hasty.
Peace.

I understand and appreciate how this sort of developmental conditioning can result in violent behavior. However, anyone regardless of age that takes the time to tourcher a random person prior to killing them, does so because they enjoy it.

In my opinion those guilty of such a crime need to separated from the rest of society, not turned loose with "protective" anonymity simply because they reach a certain age.

[Geek44]

I agree Paul. But it's a complex set of issues. I also find the idea that anyone actually 'enjoys' making anything suffer hard to digest. I can remember indulging in some violence against a kid much younger than I was when I was around the age of four. I was with my older friend. Nothing serious, but we beat this younger kid up a little...enough to make him cry. I've thought about this constantly since...because I'm ashamed of it. I didn't 'enjoy' it at the time and I doubt my older friend did either. Knowing myself pretty well, if I'd enjoyed it, I'd still be beating folks up today. I think a kind of 'group' mentality kicks in...things start off pretty harmless, but then they escalate and nobody wants to be the one to put the brakes on. In extreme cases, somebody ends up dead. As a rule of thumb, the group is always a quarter as smart and rational as the individuals who make up the group. (Those are my own figures...feel free to tweak 'em). It only takes one bigot with a big mouth to get a lynch mob fired up eh?
All I can say is, I'm glad I'm not a judge.