Rudolf Hess Why?

[katweasle]

Rudolf Hess, Why?

After the first World War where he served as a pilot and wounded twice Hess had many adventures before he was imprisoned with Hitler for civil disorder in the mid thirties, His friendship with Hitler grew, after watching Hitler attempt to write his book Mein Kampf (My struggle) he offered to ghost write the book for Hitler, basically making sense of Hitler’s story.

Rudolf Hess was to become the deputy leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party and a long standing close friend of Adolf Hitler.
He was a well respected member of the NAZI party always to be found close to the leader. The history of Hess is an interesting one and could fill a book with ease; however the above is a small account of where he stood in history before and during the Second World War

Question ?

Why did Hess parachute into Scotland near Glasgow on the 10th May 1941 at 1610hrs. Why did the anti aircraft guns all around Glasgow keep silent as he approached across the city towards Hamilton a town just South of Glasgow in Lanarkshire where he parachuted to the ground. The farmer who went to challenge him said he was an absolute gentleman, he was invited to take tea with the farmer and his wife until the authorities arrived. Once they arrived he asked to be taken to meet with Lord Hamilton who lived locally. Lord Hamilton was away on army duties and Hess was taken into custody.
It transpires that Hess and Lord Hamilton were good friends before the War.
Hess said to the authorities he would only speak to Lord Hamilton and the Royal Family, he would communicate with the Royal family via the Duke of Kent.

There has been much talk about the Royal family being against the War that Churchill the prime minister so excelled in. One should remember the Royal family has strong German roots, but more than that the British aristocracy in general had many friendships with German aristocracy, the ties were strong from all accounts.

A conversation between King George V1 and Churchill was commented upon by Churchill’s secretary John Colville on May 10th 1940 stating the King had talked to Churchill about him becoming Prime Minister, however, it was general knowledge that the King wanted Lord Halifax to become PM. Colville wrote “Nothing can stop him now” (Churchill) because of his powers of Blackmail ??
Lord Halifax was known for his wish to negotiate a truce between Germany and Britain.

Background information
The Cliveden set (British aristocracy) were well known to Goring as he was friends with them and new of there fondness for the aims of the Nazi party even after the fall of France.

At the time of the collapse of the BEF and the fall of France, at Dunkerque during the evacuation of the British Army Hitler ordered his tanks to stop for three days when they could have destroyed the British Army with ease. WHY ?
It is thought Hitler wanted to save the British Force so Germany could come to a peace arrangement with Britain. Joseph Goebbels writes in his diary that in June 1940 Hitler had told him talks with Britain were taking place in Sweden

Heinrich Stahmer said in 1959 there were also meeting between Samuel Hoare the British ambassador in Spain, Lord Halifax and Rudolf Hess in Madrid Spain and Portugal between February and April 1941.

In 1941 Albrecht was sent to Switzerland to meet with Samuel Hoare to discuss peace between Britain and Germany. The proposal included Germany relinquishing Norway, Denmark and France, France was to be dis armed. After the meeting he was called to Augsberg by Hess. It was reported that this peace with Britain who in Hitler’s words were not natural enemies would allow Germany to put all its force against Russia which would make sense with a view to how much Hitler hated Communism,
A FEW DAYS LATER HESS FLEW TO ENGELAND.

After the War Hess was held captive in Spandau prison along with other Nazi leaders there was a lot of talk that the prisoner number 7 was not Hess as he was supposed to be but Albert Speer who spent twenty years in prison with him said he was Hess. However, in 1973 Hess was exam end by a Doctor Hugh Thomas who found no evidence of any bullet scaring as there should have been on someone wounded in the First World War ?

Hess was reported to have lost much of his memory for example at the war crime trials he did not recognise many of his old friends. There has been much debate as to whether the British used an early method of brain washing whilst he was captive in Britain during the War as his knowledge of who wanted to make peace with Germany would be very damaging to those involved.

The British insisted that Hess be kept prisoner even after suggestions were made the others guarding Hess namely the USA, France and Russia were softening towards letting the now old man out of prison.
Russia later let it be known they would consider freeing Hess, after this was known and during the period when guarding Hess became the responsibility of the British, Hess apparently committed suicide by hanging himself with some wire left lying around the garden in which he was walking. This done by a man that due to arthritis could not do up his own shoe laces? Interestingly the guards were reported to have been told to work away from the main gate during this period and when later asked why by person’s investigation Hess’s death knew nothing or said they knew nothing.

Question. Were the Royal family and the aristocracy in collusion to make peace with Germany ? If so would this have been a good thing or a bad thing. Did Churchill want war at any price or was he involved in some way ?

[NagaSadow]

AFAIK there were three examinations of Hess's body after his death. Only the one done by the Allies came to the conclusion it was suicide, the two that were done by German forensic scientists ruled it as murder. Guess he knew to much...

[MAGNA]

Rudolf Hess, Why?

After the first World War where he served as a pilot and wounded twice Hess had many adventures before he was imprisoned with Hitler for civil disorder in the mid thirties, His friendship with Hitler grew, after watching Hitler attempt to write his book Mein Kampf (My struggle) he offered to ghost write the book for Hitler, basically making sense of Hitler’s story.

Rudolf Hess was to become the deputy leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party and a long standing close friend of Adolf Hitler.
He was a well respected member of the NAZI party always to be found close to the leader. The history of Hess is an interesting one and could fill a book with ease; however the above is a small account of where he stood in history before and during the Second World War

Question ?

Why did Hess parachute into Scotland near Glasgow on the 10th May 1941 at 1610hrs. Why did the anti aircraft guns all around Glasgow keep silent as he approached across the city towards Hamilton a town just South of Glasgow in Lanarkshire where he parachuted to the ground. The farmer who went to challenge him said he was an absolute gentleman, he was invited to take tea with the farmer and his wife until the authorities arrived. Once they arrived he asked to be taken to meet with Lord Hamilton who lived locally. Lord Hamilton was away on army duties and Hess was taken into custody.
It transpires that Hess and Lord Hamilton were good friends before the War.
Hess said to the authorities he would only speak to Lord Hamilton and the Royal Family, he would communicate with the Royal family via the Duke of Kent.

There has been much talk about the Royal family being against the War that Churchill the prime minister so excelled in. One should remember the Royal family has strong German roots, but more than that the British aristocracy in general had many friendships with German aristocracy, the ties were strong from all accounts.

A conversation between King George V1 and Churchill was commented upon by Churchill’s secretary John Colville on May 10th 1940 stating the King had talked to Churchill about him becoming Prime Minister, however, it was general knowledge that the King wanted Lord Halifax to become PM. Colville wrote “Nothing can stop him now” (Churchill) because of his powers of Blackmail ??
Lord Halifax was known for his wish to negotiate a truce between Germany and Britain.

Background information
The Cliveden set (British aristocracy) were well known to Goring as he was friends with them and new of there fondness for the aims of the Nazi party even after the fall of France.

At the time of the collapse of the BEF and the fall of France, at Dunkerque during the evacuation of the British Army Hitler ordered his tanks to stop for three days when they could have destroyed the British Army with ease. WHY ?
It is thought Hitler wanted to save the British Force so Germany could come to a peace arrangement with Britain. Joseph Goebbels writes in his diary that in June 1940 Hitler had told him talks with Britain were taking place in Sweden

Heinrich Stahmer said in 1959 there were also meeting between Samuel Hoare the British ambassador in Spain, Lord Halifax and Rudolf Hess in Madrid Spain and Portugal between February and April 1941.

In 1941 Albrecht was sent to Switzerland to meet with Samuel Hoare to discuss peace between Britain and Germany. The proposal included Germany relinquishing Norway, Denmark and France, France was to be dis armed. After the meeting he was called to Augsberg by Hess. It was reported that this peace with Britain who in Hitler’s words were not natural enemies would allow Germany to put all its force against Russia which would make sense with a view to how much Hitler hated Communism,
A FEW DAYS LATER HESS FLEW TO ENGELAND.

After the War Hess was held captive in Spandau prison along with other Nazi leaders there was a lot of talk that the prisoner number 7 was not Hess as he was supposed to be but Albert Speer who spent twenty years in prison with him said he was Hess. However, in 1973 Hess was exam end by a Doctor Hugh Thomas who found no evidence of any bullet scaring as there should have been on someone wounded in the First World War ?

Hess was reported to have lost much of his memory for example at the war crime trials he did not recognise many of his old friends. There has been much debate as to whether the British used an early method of brain washing whilst he was captive in Britain during the War as his knowledge of who wanted to make peace with Germany would be very damaging to those involved.

The British insisted that Hess be kept prisoner even after suggestions were made the others guarding Hess namely the USA, France and Russia were softening towards letting the now old man out of prison.
Russia later let it be known they would consider freeing Hess, after this was known and during the period when guarding Hess became the responsibility of the British, Hess apparently committed suicide by hanging himself with some wire left lying around the garden in which he was walking. This done by a man that due to arthritis could not do up his own shoe laces? Interestingly the guards were reported to have been told to work away from the main gate during this period and when later asked why by person’s investigation Hess’s death knew nothing or said they knew nothing.

Question. Were the Royal family and the aristocracy in collusion to make peace with Germany ? If so would this have been a good thing or a bad thing. Did Churchill want war at any price or was he involved in some way ?

There are some authors making great mileage (and profit) from these stories.

One has published works stating that the Duke of Windsor gave Hitler information on French defences. He also has books about Himmler being murdered to stop him talking and the Hess affair itself.

The documents used came from the British National Archives but have since been examined by neutral experts and found to be forgeries placed there and conveniently 'found' all of a sudden. Why didn't someone else find them years ago since the subject has been researched for decades. In each case the writer expressed shock at the revelation although the books are still on sale.

As to Hitlers moves at the time;

Dunkirk was not somewhere that could be simply taken by the panzers. It wasn't good country for tanks and troop numbers were not that great either. In fact it may have forced Britain to negotiate for peace had she lost the core of her trained army. Basically a big mistake on Hitlers part as he lost the chance of getting a very powerful bargaining chip (if the problems of taking the area had actually been overcome - unlikely).

The peace proposals;

1. France being stripped of all military power simply meant France becoming a German protectorate - in other words still occupied.

2. Denmark, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Poland were to become part of the Reich. In other words Western and North West Europe to be under full German control, not something those countries would have been keen on.
At the same time Germany would give up any rights to her overseas possessions leaving Britain control of the seas - what was to happen to Dutch, Belgian, and French possessions was unclear. Were they to become German ?

3. Libya to be occupied by German forces for the next five years. In preparation for a future advance on Suez ? Otherwise why ?

4. The Soviet Union would not be attacked - this implied that the USSR WAS to be attacked unless Britain made peace. Hard for them to believe anything Hitler put forward after that one since Germany and the USSR had a non aggression pact in place at the time. Had Britain agreed to this peace would it have meant the USSR would have been attacked at a later date - most likely yes.

There have been several other books in the last few years particularly trying to cast Churchill and Roosevelt as warmongers who would do anything to bring down Germany and Japan. Most of the books I have read on this use passages of real speeches and official documents while conveniently leaving out one whole side of the story. I have seen one in which one of Churchill's speeches to parliament was completely moved around with paragraphs in the wrong place. This changed the speech completely and the writer adds in his thoughts between the jumbled paragraphs to paint a different picture.

It is difficult to follow it all when authors are out to make a buck by creating controversy and then saying it is fact.

[katweasle]

Hi Magna you made an interesting point about Libya I had no knowledge that it had been taken into the equation. However, you seemed to miss my point about several things. EG the Dunkirk situation, the area is flat and perfect tank country with the exception of one small canal running behind the town but with plenty of crossing points it is only about 12 meters broad the tanks could have swept into the town. They didn’t because Hitler stopped them, why?
With regard to the British Archives being used to plant papers is just not creditable. It is highly secure and not open to the crazy people that might do that sort of thing. It’s easy to explain away this mystery by blaming writers but although I know there are many unworthy writers there is more to this story than we know. I am looking for dialog that will explore the mystery not try to rub it out.

Yes France was to be disarmed, but it is my understanding the Germans were to leave in order to concentrate on Russia. I agree Holland and Belgium’s fate is unknown but the other countries would have been evacuated by the Germans.

As I see it, the point of all of this was to free up the Germans to attack the USSR and not have to worry about England behind their back, in many ways it would have been to the benefit of England if this had happened.

Another point I want dialog is the question of whether Churchill wanted war at any cost to make his name or was he an honest politician (not many of those about then or now). It is clear the Royal family was involved in the peace moves somehow but the question is how deep their involvement was.

Katweasle

[MAGNA]

Hi Magna you made an interesting point about Libya I had no knowledge that it had been taken into the equation. However, you seemed to miss my point about several things. EG the Dunkirk situation, the area is flat and perfect tank country with the exception of one small canal running behind the town but with plenty of crossing points it is only about 12 meters broad the tanks could have swept into the town. They didn’t because Hitler stopped them, why?
With regard to the British Archives being used to plant papers is just not creditable. It is highly secure and not open to the crazy people that might do that sort of thing. It’s easy to explain away this mystery by blaming writers but although I know there are many unworthy writers there is more to this story than we know. I am looking for dialog that will explore the mystery not try to rub it out.

Yes France was to be disarmed, but it is my understanding the Germans were to leave in order to concentrate on Russia. I agree Holland and Belgium’s fate is unknown but the other countries would have been evacuated by the Germans.

As I see it, the point of all of this was to free up the Germans to attack the USSR and not have to worry about England behind their back, in many ways it would have been to the benefit of England if this had happened.

Another point I want dialog is the question of whether Churchill wanted war at any cost to make his name or was he an honest politician (not many of those about then or now). It is clear the Royal family was involved in the peace moves somehow but the question is how deep their involvement was.

Katweasle

I am not trying to rub anything out. At the same time you cannot expect 'dialogue' to mean only allowable if it confirms the first post. Since we now have a clearer understanding of what you are after some more detail can be put in. Apart from that it looked like the thread was about Hess...

1. Dunkirk. Hitler was not in fact responsible for the stop order. Von Rundstedt ordered the halt on the 24th as he wanted units to close up and didn't fully understand the use of mechanised units. The small attack by French and British forces at Arras had thrown a big scare the German's way. They were concerned about their southern wing and whether further trouble was coming from that direction, even though it wasn't.

Hitler confirmed Von Rundstedts halt order on the night of the 24th. The next error came as Goering claimed the Luftwaffe could do the job. This of course proved to be incorrect. Nevertheless the army was halted and the Luftwaffe sent in.

On the 26th Von Rundstedt went forward to view the situation and conferred with Hitler. It was decided then that the army should go in to prevent further evacuation. All far too late as the defences had been strengthened and the bulk of the troops had already been shipped to Britain.

As it transpires, it was not a political decision on Hitlers part at all, more of a series of events which included tactical errors of the kind that make the difference between victory and overwhelming victory.

2. Archival tampering. This problem is more than credible. It has been picked up in Britain, the US, and Germany. Many people use the archives and take notes. It would be easy enough to slip a sheet or two into a file when there. That is what has happened, especially more recently, and it is a shame for all concerned.

3. France to be disarmed but to be left for how long ? Holland, Belgium and Denmark to be taken over by Germany. These were the proposals. Also, more importantly - a guarantee that the USSR would NOT be attacked. Anyone could see after what had happened with the Czech situation that Hitler could not be trusted to keep his word. Poland was supposed to have been left alone as well which didn't happen. That is what caused Britain and France to declare war on Germany in the first place. That in fact was Hitler's doing.

The occupation of the Soviet Union by Germany would have had no benefits for Britain whatsoever. Strategically it would have been a disaster for them as Germany would have had access to the Northern Pacific as well as Asia and the Middle East.

4. Churchill and the Royals. Churchill did not want war at any cost. Churchill did not start the war in the first place and his solution in 1938 would have been to call Hitlers bluff over Czechoslovakia which would have worked since bluff what all Hitler had at his disposal then. Others allowed Hitler free rein to make promises he promptly broke. Again nothing was done. Churchill knew Hitlers type and saw it all coming. He warned over and over against allowing Hitler to do what he was doing and was ignored.

Churchill was also aware of the situation in Germany itself. The repression of individuals and programs such as Aktion T4 would have alarmed his sensibilities (as they should with anyone). To negotiate with a regime which instigated such things as these would have been totally against his nature.

Churchill didn't need to make his name by 1940 anyway - most people already knew who he was.

As to the Royals involvement or non involvement. Again, the only reference I have seen came from a book which has been thoroughly discredited due to the 'letters' found being shown to be fakes. It would not have been any use negotiating with the royal family anyway as they did not run Britain, the government did. The personal political persuasion of any member of the royal family is just that, their own opinion. They have no say in politics.

[PanzerBob]

All of this makes for interesting debate and I believe the truth maybe somewhere in between or even further a field than suspected. The real secrets are still under orders not to be declassifed for many years yet if ever at all. Not to mention, anything really damaging or earthshattering was most likely destoryed or even never recorded at all. I'd put money on the last!

If the players involved really were playing at such intrigue would they leave such a trail of evidence to convict themselves? Yes I'm aware others did such as the Nazi's but even there somethings were either done by word of mouth or the orders or documents were never found.

As for skewing around things said that are very much public record, that smacks very much as revisionism and as such needs to be shot down as soon as possible. I always find it concerning with people who try to paint the Leaders and governments of the past with the brush of todays morality.


Bob out

[redcoat]

1. Dunkirk. Hitler was not in fact responsible for the stop order. Von Rundstedt ordered the halt on the 24th as he wanted units to close up and didn't fully understand the use of mechanised units. The small attack by French and British forces at Arras had thrown a big scare the German's way. They were concerned about their southern wing and whether further trouble was coming from that direction, even though it wasn't.

Hitler confirmed Von Rundstedts halt order on the night of the 24th. The next error came as Goering claimed the Luftwaffe could do the job. This of course proved to be incorrect. Nevertheless the army was halted and the Luftwaffe sent in.

On the 26th Von Rundstedt went forward to view the situation and conferred with Hitler. It was decided then that the army should go in to prevent further evacuation. All far too late as the defences had been strengthened and the bulk of the troops had already been shipped to Britain.

Good post, but I would like to add one point.
Only 30,000 troops had been evacuated by the 26th, the vast majority were evacuated over the next four days, after the halt order had been rescinded

[MAGNA]

True, by which time the defences were much better which was what I really meant. Thanks.

[katweasle]

Interesting debate but I am still convinced there is a story to tell about the meetings held between Germany and England at that time, As said the actual details will be long hidden, or not record at all. With regard to the Royal family there is little doubt of some sort of involvement but I don’t suppose we will ever find out.
There is no doubt the Hess story is fascinating.

[redcoat]

Heinrich Stahmer said in 1959 there were also meeting between Samuel Hoare the British ambassador in Spain, Lord Halifax and Rudolf Hess in Madrid Spain and Portugal between February and April 1941.

Lord Halifax was the British ambassador to the USA at this time, he was no longer a member of the British War Cabinet.

However, in 1973 Hess was exam end by a Doctor Hugh Thomas who found no evidence of any bullet scaring as there should have been on someone wounded in the First World War ?

According to his WW1 medical record he was shot with a small caliber rifle round which left pea sized entry and exit scars, these would have disappeared with time.

The British insisted that Hess be kept prisoner even after suggestions were made the others guarding Hess namely the USA, France and Russia were softening towards letting the now old man out of prison.

Completely untrue. It was the Soviets who refused to free Hess.
When the German president Gustav Heinemann wrote to the Soviets in 1974 requesting Hess be released, the response from the Soviet embassy was:"
A pardon for the Nazi war criminal Rudolf Hess who represents a symbol for the grisly acts and crimes of Nazism and Fascism throughout the world, and who during his long imprisonment has shown no remorse, would be misunderstood by the entire democratic world. Like it or not, an amnesty for Rudolf Hess would signify an amnesty for Nazism and Fascism".

Russia later let it be known they would consider freeing Hess, after this was known and during the period when guarding Hess became the responsibility of the British, Hess apparently committed suicide by hanging himself with some wire left lying around the garden in which he was walking.

Again, completely untrue. He was being guarded by the USA at the time of his death

Question. Were the Royal family and the aristocracy in collusion to make peace with Germany ?

There is no real evidence that they were

If so would this have been a good thing or a bad thing.

Doing anything which might help the Nazi's is a bad thing