Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact

[Lancer44]

In wide historical circles mentioning of Suvorov-Rezun works is very bad.
This ex-GRU agent which escaped to UK is regarded as unreliable source and author which is bending facts
to support his theories.
Reading more about Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact I tend now to think that what Rezun is writing makes sense.
He clearly shows that Stalin's purges of officers of the Red Army not disabled soviet forces but to the contrary strengthened.
Most higher ranks executed were old bolsheviks unable to learn and mostly completely useless.
"Genius" Tukhaczevski was shot after he demanded 100,000 planes and tanks to be build in two years.
Only someone which never read Tukhaczevskis books can think about him as about able minded commander.
I reality his "strategic ideas" are just old bolshevik blubber and wishfull thinking.
Stalin's purges opened many positions to young, intelligent officers which eventually won the war.
There is no doubt that Stalin never even considered alliance with old demokracies of Europe.
He wanted to direct Hitler towards the West. Poland, secondary target, fell to Hitler first due to British manipulations. Britain seriously worried that Beck
will somewhat agree with Berlin and Poland will join Anticomintern Pact. Beck was unfortunately stupid and believed in British carrot called "guarantees".
Thus history went as we know it.
Stalin's plans of conquering Europe, from the river Bug to Pyrenees and English Channel, failed because Hitler attacked first.
Rezun shows distribution of soviet forces in early June 1941. Many airfields were build between 10 to 30km from German-Soviet border.
This fact clearly tell us about aggressive Stalin's plans. Artillery ammunition dumps were also in very close proximity to the border.
Amount of ammo captured by Germans in June 41 was so great, that on 6-th of June 1944 captured soviet artillery pieces on Atlantic Wall were using this ammo
shooting to Allied forces.
It may sound paradoxical but Stalin not conquered Europe just thanks to Hitler...

[Egorka]

Hello!

Suvorov/Rezun is crazy and you are waisting time... but is up to you, of course...

There is no doubt that Stalin never even considered alliance with old demokracies of Europe.

Stalin offered very percistantly alliens to UK and France in April-August 1939. But UK was uninterested. It is a very know fact that the british deligation sent to Moscow in early august 1939 was a jike and insult to USSR. If UK was playing fair then Stalin might had signed treaty with them instead of Hitler.

And yea Stalin was trying to get peace with Hitler and direct him to the west. He did EXACTLY the same as waht Chembarlain did one year before. So please first blame UK and France for this. And use more dirty words, we all like it.

This pact was "forced" by the UK's politic. Because unlike UK, USSR did not have any allies in 1939. And obviously Stalin did try to avoid facing Germany (read economical might of whole of Europe) alone!


Peace, love and a little bit of sex!

Igor Korenev

[Lancer44]

Originally Posted by Egorka

Hello!

Suvorov/Rezun is crazy and you are waisting time... but is up to you, of course...

Hi Igor,

I know and I knew that Suvorov/Rezun is crazy...
But there is a grain of truth in his madness.
Can you explain to me why his books are banned in Australia?
Can you explain to me why some archival maps and military plans from 1940 are still "Top Secret" in Russia? Do you have any explanation?

Some maps from June 1941 - soviet ones - surfaced on E-Bay. Can you explain positioning of soviet airfield full of I-16 fighters 20 km from the border with this time GG - occupied Poland?
Did you ever though how much time Stuka diving bomber needed to fly 20 km?
How this compare to time soviet pilots needed to drop their coffee cups, run to "Ishatshoks", taxi to the runway and start?
Do you really think, that Zhukhov and other generals of Red Army were idiots?
I don't think. He and many more proved it in 1943, 1944, 1945.

So what happened in June 1941?

Well - official historiography, official books cannot give me any explanation...
Suvorov brought quite plausible one...
Shocking? Why not?

Remember Igor, all your history books up to 1991 were complete rubbish.
After that time, many honest historians in Russia tried to dig up if not truth, at least part of it.
An even part of truth is so painful and shocking to average Russian...
that Kremlin decided to supress it at least until 2015, when all veterans will theoretically die.

I know it may be difficult to accept for you, but USSR was second one after Hitler's Germany pretendent to the title od "Worst Tyranny of the World".

And why Rezun/Suvorov is branded crazy?

Just because he is trying to prove that USSR is entitled to be a gold medalist in contest with Nazi Germany.
Such thing is unacceptable by former Allies, by Holocaust profiteers and generally by anyone. Even Iran's Holocaust deniers cannot answer many questions in this topic.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Originally Posted by Egorka

Stalin offered very percistantly alliens to UK and France in April-August 1939. But UK was uninterested. It is a very know fact that the british deligation sent to Moscow in early august 1939 was a jike and insult to USSR. If UK was playing fair then Stalin might had signed treaty with them instead of Hitler.

And yea Stalin was trying to get peace with Hitler and direct him to the west. He did EXACTLY the same as waht Chembarlain did one year before. So please first blame UK and France for this. And use more dirty words, we all like it.

This pact was "forced" by the UK's politic. Because unlike UK, USSR did not have any allies in 1939. And obviously Stalin did try to avoid facing Germany (read economical might of whole of Europe) alone!


Peace, love and a little bit of sex!

Igor Korenev

[Egorka]

Hi Lance44 (by the way, are you the one from WW2inColor forum?),

I do not have time and hot ready 100% to object Rezun's points. I will try to do it in the reasonably close future.

An other thing is that I agree that Stalin's USSR was far from being a lamb. And it might be true that he could have started preventive war against Hitler. Maybe together with Chirchill. But all this is very gepothetical. Because it is bullshit that Stalin planned the attack in 1941.

Hitler on the other hand made the only possible correct dessicion (of course from his point of view) to attack USSR in summer 1941. He could do it neither earlier not later. Not earlier, because he needed to incorporate France's economy and possibly force UK to allience. Not later, because then USSR could have gain more strenght.

Here is what Marshal Manstein says about the situation after France was defeated (my rough translation to English):

The main danger was in postponing this war. No one knew how long time USSR would wait. If we had choosen to reduce our land forces and use our aviation fully against England, then USSR would, if not join the war, get on the way of political blackmailing.

And here is what Marshal Keitel says (my rough translation):

Our land army was standing without use. After defeat of France, it did not have adversary in Europe and it was clear, that we could not keep her undefinately long in the mobilised state without use. Thus Furer found it to be extremely favorable chance to end up with Bolshevism.

So as you see the talks about Stalins palns to attack are much more hipotetical compare to Hitler's.

You have to understand that Stalin was not better than Hitler. BUT only in the internal affairs. In the international relationships they were palying the same game as others: defending national interests. Please reat after me: "Chirchill defendet UK's political and financial interests." Mr.Chirchill did not hold his country in the iron fist, but he played very dirty game internationaly.

that is it for now... no more time...

Regards
Igor

[Lancer44]

Hi Igor,

Well, I'm the same lancer44 fro WWII in Color...

regarding your last post. I agree with you in all points except one - you are saying that "Stalin's plans to attack in 1941 were bullshit".

I understand Rezun's bullshit is what you mean?
This would be also my way of thinking, if not one small fact or rather witness account which I heard personally.
In 1981, in summer, I went holidaying in Masurian lakes area. There, fishing I met elderly bloke in his late 80's.. We started to talk. About politics, Solidarity, war etc.

He invited me and my first wife to his house. I bought some vodka and we had our fresh fishes for dinner.
After a couple of glasses he told us the story of his life. He was born somwhere about 1895, (If I remember well), in this time Privislanskij Kraj - Russian occupied part of Poland. Drafted to the Russian army in 1914 he served on the front. After Revolution he joined bolsheviks not out of political convictions but to save his life - as a sargeant he would be shot.
He went with Budienny towards Warsaw in 1920 and deserted near Lublin.
Settled down and married in pre-war Poland.
He lived near Sochaczew, but in 1939 he was near Lomza which after 17/09/1939 become soviet territory.

It happened that Lomza NKVD commandant was ex-tsarist army soldier which knew well Malinski. Malinski was recruited and sent to NKVD spy school.

In early June 1941 he was dropped onto GG territory together with radiotelegrafist and radiostation. Their orders were: "Await start of the war. Retreat right behind german forces and report about troop movements."

When Malinski and his radio man landed in GG, they promptly dig a hole, dropped radiostation and parachutes in, divided money given to Malinski and parted amiably.
Malinski survived the war holed somewhere on the farm where widowed women was happy to have a man under her duna.
His family "evacuated" to the east by soviet authorities perished in war turmoil.

I don't have any reason to doubt what this bloke told me.

If NKVD parachuted him and radio man 3 weeks before the german invasion with orders to retreat with Wehrmacht ... I have only one conclusion:
REZUN IS RIGHT!

Regards,

Lancer44

[Egorka]

Hello! Nice to see you!

My friend, when I read this

"Await start of the war. Retreat right behind german forces and report about troop movements."

I do not understand it as indication about the Soviet plans for attack. This fact can not be used to prove either of the point of views. It could have been purely preventive and deffencive action.

From early May the warning started comming to Stalin from the spies about the upcomming German offencive. Staling did not trust them so much, especially after the fist few dates for attack in May did not hold.
But is clear that all this tension lead to bunch of defencive initiative, like the one this guys was involved in. Any reasonable country would do it.

But in any case, even for Stalin, the intension of Hitler was clear. The question was when. And that is where Stalin made a mistake.

Do you know, that just couple of days before the German attack there was order given not to respond with fire in case of border incidents and provocation, as Stalin wanted to postpone the war as much as possible. This in fact created rather much confusion during first hours of the German attack as some garrisons did not open fire an let germans to gain advantage.

Secondly, if I am not mistaken, very large part of the officers were on the leave during the very same weekend (The war started on Sunday at 04:00).

Sorry, mate, the story of this guy is interesting but does not prove the plan for Soviet attack (in fact there was a plan for preventive war against Germsany developed by Zhukov but it was clearly preventive plan in case the German attack is inevitable. Later about it, if you want.).

Best regards
Igor

[Potsdamerplatz]

The Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact almost prevented Ribbentrop from standing trial at Nuremberg. The Russians were nervous about the Secret Protocol becoming public.

Ribbentrop actually enjoyed his time at the Kremlin and a state banquet was held in his honour during which various toasts were exchanged. He later said that his time with Stalin and Molotov was a happy occasion - like being with "old party comrades"