Operation Sealion

[JohnnieB]

Originally Posted by Foerunado

Since England was last successfully invaded in 1688 I think its fair to say that your prime dictums of warfare dont work in every situation and it might be high time to think outside the box. This is only a what if for discussion purposes only, I think its safe to say that it would have been impossible for the Germans to pull it off regardless. What, if any, ideas do you have? Or are you going to spend all of your posts telling other people how thier ideas wont work? Lets hear how you would do it and we can discuss this further.

I did this once, but the board apparently regurgitated it.


Is this solely about finding ways to make the Germans win, or is this serious?

I don’t believe that it was possible, given the socio-economic-military environment, but a few things that might have helped include:

Don’t go on vacation for 2 months after the fall of France.

An integrated plan.

A central command center, clear lines of command and communication.

An intelligence network.

Design, testing and production of a range of suitable amphibious landing craft. A variety were produced after the German window of opportunity closed.

Landing Crafts

A fleet capable of challenging the Royal Navy in the Channel. This would mean an emphasis on destroyers. That would mean no more Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Spee.

Stop obsessing solely on speed. By doing so you insist on very high pressure boilers which break down at an unacceptably high rate putting much of what fleet you do have in the yards for repairs.

Have a replacement for the Stuka in the pipeline. It was nearing the end of its useful life.

Have a dedicated maritime attack component to the Luftwaffe.

Have tested and discovered the limitations of your aerial torpedoes, especially the contactor heads, and have come up with a fix. It’s not rocket science.

A BIG ONE
Have identified the possibility that these circumstances might arise several years in advance, use those years to prepare, and transfer resources away from the programs that allowed these circumstances to arise.

Meaning the economy of Germany permitted only so much activity, do you devote that activity to crossing the English Channel at the expense of building up the Heer which got you to the coast in the first place?

BTW, are you suggesting that William of Orange did NOT concentrate his fleet? Torbay isn’t a huge place for 60,000 PBI and 5,000 horses. Check also the various opinions on whether the Glorious Revolution was an invasion or a … well … internally supported revolution.

[Roddoss72]

Originally Posted by JohnnieB

I did this once, but the board apparently regurgitated it.


Is this solely about finding ways to make the Germans win, or is this serious?

I don’t believe that it was possible, given the socio-economic-military environment, but a few things that might have helped include:

Don’t go on vacation for 2 months after the fall of France.

An integrated plan.

A central command center, clear lines of command and communication.

An intelligence network.

Design, testing and production of a range of suitable amphibious landing craft. A variety were produced after the German window of opportunity closed.

Landing Crafts

A fleet capable of challenging the Royal Navy in the Channel. This would mean an emphasis on destroyers. That would mean no more Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Spee.

Stop obsessing solely on speed. By doing so you insist on very high pressure boilers which break down at an unacceptably high rate putting much of what fleet you do have in the yards for repairs.

Have a replacement for the Stuka in the pipeline. It was nearing the end of its useful life.

Have a dedicated maritime attack component to the Luftwaffe.

Have tested and discovered the limitations of your aerial torpedoes, especially the contactor heads, and have come up with a fix. It’s not rocket science.

A BIG ONE
Have identified the possibility that these circumstances might arise several years in advance, use those years to prepare, and transfer resources away from the programs that allowed these circumstances to arise.

Meaning the economy of Germany permitted only so much activity, do you devote that activity to crossing the English Channel at the expense of building up the Heer which got you to the coast in the first place?

BTW, are you suggesting that William of Orange did NOT concentrate his fleet? Torbay isn’t a huge place for 60,000 PBI and 5,000 horses. Check also the various opinions on whether the Glorious Revolution was an invasion or a … well … internally supported revolution.

While i do agree with what you have written. It is that the way you suggest it the Germans would not be ready to launch Operation Seelowe until 1945.

What you are suggesting that the Germans effectively remodel their whole Wehrmacht (especially the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine) to do this it would take years, by this stage when they are ready the Hammer and Sickle has been hoisted above the Reichstag.

The one thing the Germans did not have and that is the Luxury of time, and invasion such as Operation Seelowe had to be launched within a four week window, i suggest no later than 19th July 1940 this give the Germans at least 6 days of good weather and channel conditions.

As i said i was putting a senario together to get this going, but i had to put it on the backburner, but my interest is piqued now so i'll come up with a senario.

[cyberia]

Heads Up!

Based a few things I have read in this thread I sincerely hope you guys are leaning more toward discussing war, and less trying to start one.

Lets keep it fun and civil, OK?

[JohnnieB]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

While i do agree with what you have written. It is that the way you suggest it the Germans would not be ready to launch Operation Seelowe until 1945.

What you are suggesting that the Germans effectively remodel their whole Wehrmacht (especially the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine) to do this it would take years, by this stage when they are ready the Hammer and Sickle has been hoisted above the Reichstag.

The one thing the Germans did not have and that is the Luxury of time, and invasion such as Operation Seelowe had to be launched within a four week window, i suggest no later than 19th July 1940 this give the Germans at least 6 days of good weather and channel conditions.

As i said i was putting a senario together to get this going, but i had to put it on the backburner, but my interest is piqued now so i'll come up with a senario.

No, I'm saying their window of opportunity was closed by September, in order to have had a ghost of a chance they would have had to have done all this years before they did in real life. They would have had to start in say 1935, with all the industrial, political and operational compromises and foresight that that involved.

Doing it on the fly wouldn't work.

[Roddoss72]

Originally Posted by JohnnieB

No, I'm saying their window of opportunity was closed by September, in order to have had a ghost of a chance they would have had to have done all this years before they did in real life. They would have had to start in say 1935, with all the industrial, political and operational compromises and foresight that that involved.

Doing it on the fly wouldn't work.

Salutations JohnnieB

Yeah good point there JohnnieB, i in my senario that i am working on indicates that 1938 is the crucial year., should have my first installment in by next week.

Roddoss72

[Brin]

Hi Foerunado,

Very interested in your thoughts concerning the idea of Britain being successfully invaded in 1688. Given the involvement of my own ancestors in Ireland at the time (albeit as Jacobites, prior to the label being used in Scotland), this time period is of interest to me. The arrival of William of Orange in England was by invitation, based on religious and economic concerns of the period. While Charles II, had successfully 'danced the merry dance' of politics, his brother and successor James II did not, preferring to flaunt his Papal faith in expensive buildings and promotions of only the nobility who were of the same.
Accepted that conflict did occur in Ireland until 1697 and the signing of the Treaty of Limerick (again by one of my indirect ancestors). This is considered as an internal struggle involving aspects of religion, concepts of greater Irish independence/self government, coupled with social and economic wants of emancipation for the majority of the populace having being oppressed under the Penal Laws.
The above is a very 'internalistic' view of perception from within Britain, but if you have a viewpoint from outwith Britain (ie: Europe etc) I would be interested hear more.

[McCoy]

I've allways thought that the last time Britain was succesfully invaded was back in 1066.

[JohnnieB]

Yeah, it's only Wiki but

Glorious Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Brin]

"From November 12, in the North, many nobles began to declare for William, as they had promised." (Wiki 'The Glorious Revolution').

Have read the above, although an interesting read, it only hints at the full story. For example, the above extract is suggestive of extensive contact between William and various nobles throughout England prior to the landing. Accpted that he did land with an large force, but to do so without such would be foolhardy, for if captured by James II's forces, he could hardly expect any mercy. The fact remains that there was no resistance to his arrival or assuming the crown in England, which therefore underlines the dislike most held of James' reign and differences in religion. Despite various theories it was a revolution, if glorious or not depends on your viewpoint/bias.

[JohnnieB]

Well, I'm not disagreeing. What started this sidetrack was the comment that concentration of force was not always needed and the "invasion" of 1688 was cited as an example.

Concensus seems to be there was concentration and it was more a revolution. Glorious? Propagandists speaking ex post facto.