Operation Sealion

[Roddoss72]

Salutations All

my senario.

In 1938 Hitler convenes a meeting of the heads three branches of the Wehrmacht and he stuns the meeting to prepare for general war by 1939 or 1940. Hitler has eyes on Poland and he expects that Britain and France may be major stumbling blocks and that eventually Germany will have to deal with these nations if they intervene.

So in 1939 Germany is gearing up to invade Poland sometime in late 1939 or early 1940. During mid 1939 Hitler calls on the OKW to draw up preliminary plans for the invasion of the west, this is to include Britain. OKM has the job of developing and producing efficient and sufficient landing barges, these landing barges are technically called "Agricultural Barges". By August the first "Agricultural Barges" begin to enter service, these barges can carry two heavy agricultural tractors of 35 tonnes each, and to further draw away their military application they are given to farmers and manufacturers of agricultural implements. They are low cost and easily manufactured by June 1940 over 2,500 are in service and a further 1,000 being built, one aspect of the Agricultural Barges are the platform at the rear of the barge, this is the position of the future quad mount 20mm anti-aircraft guns. Also during 1939 the OKL is charged with building more gliders. While the OKH begins to form a new service within the Heer and that is of the Marine Division, these are specifically amphibious divisions. 12 Marine divisions are ordered to form.

September 1939 Germany invades Poland. Britain and France declare war on Germany.

January 1940 12 German Marine Divisions recieve their Orders of Battle and begin training on the German Baltic Coast. Norway became a side issue that detracted both sides, but it would prove a fantastic opportunity for the Germans to test their new Marines.

March 1940 Operation Fall Braun the master plan of the invasion of Britain is completed and approved by Hitler.

April-June 1940 Battle of Norway opens up, the 1st German Marine Corps is deployed in the south of Norway and months of testing and the deployment proves a valuable test for the future. Finally the Germans win the Battle of Norway. OKM begin to transfer all the "Agricultural Barges" into OKM service and installing of the anti-aircraft guns is completed.

May-June 1940 Operation Fall Gelb is launched with the Battle of France opens. Italy remains neutral throughout the conflict. BEF and 1st French Army escapes but France is forced into seeking an armistice which is signed on the 22nd June.

I'll continue this later.

Regards

Roddoss72

[JohnnieB]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

Salutations All

my senario.

In 1938 Hitler convenes a meeting of the heads three branches of the Wehrmacht and he stuns the meeting to prepare for general war by 1939 or 1940. Hitler has eyes on Poland and he expects that Britain and France may be major stumbling blocks and that eventually Germany will have to deal with these nations if they intervene.

So in 1939 Germany is gearing up to invade Poland sometime in late 1939 or early 1940. During mid 1939 Hitler calls on the OKW to draw up preliminary plans for the invasion of the west, this is to include Britain. OKM has the job of developing and producing efficient and sufficient landing barges, these landing barges are technically called "Agricultural Barges". By August the first "Agricultural Barges" begin to enter service, these barges can carry two heavy agricultural tractors of 35 tonnes each, and to further draw away their military application they are given to farmers and manufacturers of agricultural implements. They are low cost and easily manufactured by June 1940 over 2,500 are in service and a further 1,000 being built, one aspect of the Agricultural Barges are the platform at the rear of the barge, this is the position of the future quad mount 20mm anti-aircraft guns. Also during 1939 the OKL is charged with building more gliders.

I presume you mean something like this:



Technical details here: MarinefährprahmTechnical Data

or if you want something with some firepower, this:



Technical details here: Artilleriefährprahm Technical Data

Given the size of the craft, the small size of German farms and the resulting wide distribution inherent in loaning them to farmers, this is needless transport expense. pretend, if you can, that they are just barges. Hide things in the open, nobody thinks of looking there.

While the OKH begins to form a new service within the Heer and that is of the Marine Division, these are specifically amphibious divisions. 12 Marine divisions are ordered to form.

September 1939 Germany invades Poland. Britain and France declare war on Germany.

January 1940 12 German Marine Divisions recieve their Orders of Battle and begin training on the German Baltic Coast. Norway became a side issue that detracted both sides, but it would prove a fantastic opportunity for the Germans to test their new Marines.

March 1940 Operation Fall Braun the master plan of the invasion of Britain is completed and approved by Hitler.

Plan should be complete much earlier, but OK.

April-June 1940 Battle of Norway opens up, the 1st German Marine Corps is deployed in the south of Norway and months of testing and the deployment proves a valuable test for the future. Finally the Germans win the Battle of Norway. OKM begin to transfer all the "Agricultural Barges" into OKM service and installing of the anti-aircraft guns is completed.

May-June 1940 Operation Fall Gelb is launched with the Battle of France opens. Italy remains neutral throughout the conflict. BEF and 1st French Army escapes but France is forced into seeking an armistice which is signed on the 22nd June.

I'll continue this later.

Regards

Roddoss72

Royal Navy Home Waters disposition may be found here:
HMS Curacoa

Let's rock..

[Roddoss72]

Salutations JohnnieB

In regards to the "Agricultural Barges" i had something a little bit less technical, and can be massed produced in a hurry, one model with multiple aplications.

Thank you for your interest in my Operation Fall Braun. Have a good day.

The page concerns the home fleet circa June 1941, not July 1940.

Regards

Roddoss72

[JohnnieB]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

Salutations JohnnieB

In regards to the "Agricultural Barges" i had something a little bit less technical, and can be massed produced in a hurry, one model with multiple aplications.

Thank you for your interest in my Operation Fall Braun. Have a good day.

The page concerns the home fleet circa June 1941, not July 1940.

Regards

Roddoss72

My mistake, try here, page 1 of 3 in Home Waters

Royal Navy Ships 10 June 1940

or

EXTRACT FROM A LIST ORIGINALLY COMPILED BY ANDY H

This is the very sharp end. It does not include patrol craft or minesweepers or any of the plethora of other vessels found on the original list.

The Royal Navy: Order of battle, 16 September 1940
Source: "Pink List" for 16th September 1940, Operations Division, Admiralty Naval Staff (Public Record Office ADM187/9).

Vessels under repair or refitting are marked *;

Minesweeping destroyers marked (†).


Dispositions of Warships in Home Waters, 1600hrs/16 September 1940 with approximate steaming times to Dungeness (in the center of the invasion area). Minesweeping destroyers marked †

Scapa Flow (26 hrs from Dungeness at 20kts)
1 BC: Repulse (RA(D)), 1 BM: Erebus
1 CV: Furious (12 Skua, 18 Swordfish, 6 Gladiator)
2 CA: Berwick, Norfolk
1 CL: Glasgow, 1 CLAA: Curacoa
6 DD: Somali (D6), Eskimo, Matabele, Duncan, Versatile, Vimy
1 DE: Eglington;
1 SS: L.23

Dundee (19 hrs)
3 TB: Z.5 (NL), Z.6 (NL), Z.8 (NL)
3 SS: L.26, O.21 (NL), O.24 (NL)

Rosyth (18hrs)
2 BB: Nelson (C-in-C), Rodney
1 BC: Hood (VA, BCS)
3 CLAA: Naiad (RA, CS15), Bonadventure, Cairo (RA, AAS)
13 DD: Cossack (D4), Maori, Sikh, Zulu, Jackal†, Kashmir†, Kipling†, Ashanti, Bedouin, Punjabi, Tartar, Electra†, Vortigern
4 DE: Valorous, Vega†, Verdun†, Woolston
1 TB: Sleipner (NO)
2 SS: Seawolf, Snapper,

Blyth (14 hrs)
3 SS: Sturgeon, Swordfish, Ursula
Humber (10 hrs)
3 CL: Manchester (VA, CS18), Southampton (RA, CS18), Birmingham
5 DD: Javelin† (D5), Jupiter†, Jaguar†, Kelvin†, Watchman
Lowestoft (5 hrs): 1 TB: Draug (NO), 1 MTB: MTB.18

Harwich (3.5 hrs)
6 DD: Malcolm (D16), Venomous, Verity, Wild Swan, Wivern, Worcester
1 SS: H 44
11 MTB: MTB.14, MTB.15, MTB.16, MTB.17, MTB.22, MTB.28, MTB.29, MTB.31, MTB.32, MTB.34, MTB.67, MTB.68

London (4.5 hrs) 1 MTB: MTB.24
Sheerness/Chatham (4 hrs)
2 CL: Galatea (VA, CS2), Aurora
8 DD: Brilliant, Icarus†, Impulsive†, Campbell (D21), Venetia, Vesper, Vivacious, Walpole
10 DE: Cattistock, Holderness, Garth, Hambledon, Vanity, Vimiera†, Wallace, Westminster, Winchester, Wolsey
Dover (1 hr) 2 MTB: MTB.6, MTB.72

Portsmouth (3.5 hrs)
1 CL: Cardiff
12 DD: Beagle, Bulldog, Havelock (D9), Harvester, Hesperus, Highlander, Vanoc, Viscount, Saladin, Sardonyx, Sturdy, Mistral
2 DE: Berkeley, Fernie
5 TB: Branlebas, L'Incomprise, La Cordeliere, La Flore, Z 7
2 SS: Ondine, Orion
6 MTB: MTB.3, MTB.4, MTB.5, MTB.25, MTB.30, MTB.33

Southampton (4 hrs) 2 DD: Volunteer, Wolverine

Portland (5 hrs) 2 MTB: MTB.69, MTB.70

Plymouth (8 hrs)
1 BB: Revenge
2 CL: Newcastle, Emerald
11 DD: Isis†, Broke, Vansittart, Whitehall, Westcott, Blyskawica (PO), Burza (PO), Ouragan (FFNL), Garland† (PO)
3 TB: Bouclier(NL), La Melpomene (FFNL),
Milford Haven (14 hrs) 1 TB: G.13 (NL)

Liverpool (18.5hrs)
3 DD: Vanquisher, Walker, Sabre

Firth of Clyde (21.5 hrs)
1 CL: Sheffield
10 DD: Keppel (D12), Achates†, Active†, Amazon†, Antelope†, Arrow†, Douglas, Ottawa (RCN), Skeena† (RCN), St Laurent† (RCN)
6 SS: Tigris, Otway, Upright, B.1 (NO), H.31, H.34

Oban/Tobermory (22.5 hrs)
3 SS: H.32, H.33, H.50

Belfast/Londonderry (20 hrs)
3 DD: Shikari, Scimitar, Skate

Destroyers at Sea (patrols, escorting convoys etc )
8 DD
2 DE
1 TB

Submarines on patrol
17 SS

So you intend to specifically manufacture vessels similar to the barges the KM converted.

I see.

[Roddoss72]

Salutations JohnnieB

No the barges are to be designed by the Kriegsmarine but initally for civillian use.

Regards

Roddoss72

[JohnnieB]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

Salutations JohnnieB

In regards to the "Agricultural Barges" i had something a little bit less technical, and can be massed produced in a hurry, one model with multiple aplications.

Thank you for your interest in my Operation Fall Braun. Have a good day.

The page concerns the home fleet circa June 1941, not July 1940.

Regards

Roddoss72

Some points for consideration.

At the time the weight of the Agricultural Tractor Mk III Ausf H was 21.6 tonnes.



The weight of the Agricultural Tractor Mk IV Ausf D was 20 tonnes.


2 of the Agricultural Tractors would require a vessel payload of approximately 40 tonnes, call it 50 tonnes for safety. Your 70 tonnes exceeds this by a factor of 40%.

Alternatively, 3 Agricultural Tractor Mk III or IV would fit within your stated payload of 70 tonnes. This would require a larger (by volume) vessel, but would be a more efficient use of resources.

You may be able to refine your design in order to save time, materials and cost.

A modern guide for this might be the LCM-8. It has a welldeck of 13 metres long and 4.5 metres wide, so a couple of Agricultural Tractors Mk IV Ausf. D will fit both in terms of size and weight. It will also carry 200 armed troops.



It does however weigh 48 tonnes. Now given an ancillary portion of, say 13 tonnes, this leaves 35 tonnes of bare bone boat. Constructing 2,500 of them would require approximately 87,500 tonnes of steel. Equipping them would require the dedication of 10,000 engines- large engines, preferably marine diesels.

That’s a lot of steel when steel was in fact over-allocated, that is there was more steel being allocated than was being produced. It was generally allocated to the last person or agency who whined to Hitler. (Tooze, Wages of Destruction)

What would the Heer’s reaction be? This steel and those engines could have become tanks.

As far as using the 20mm FlaKvierling 38 L / 112.5, It only entered service in March, 1940. A total of 3,768 were produced during the entire war. It had an effective ceiling of 2,200 metres.



You may wish to consider the 37mm FlaK 37 L / 98. It had a similar total weight of fire, had an effective ceiling of 4,800 metres and a similar weight in operation. Over 12,000 were produced.



But let’s distribute them to the farmers. 48 tonnes. Hmmm. It weighs roughly twice what the current Agricultural Tractor Mk III weighs.

It is significantly larger. Will it fit along the roads, will it fit across the bridges? What vehicles are to be used to transport them?

Better to hide them in plain sight.

The average farm in Germany, exclusive of the huge estates, was between 10 and 30 hectares. (Tooze, Wages of Destruction) They operated with horsepower, sorry, horse power. What are even going to pretend to do with an item resembling an LCM-8?


The LCM is a very versatile craft. For details on LCM - 8 Users Guide

but highlights include:
Vessel Dimensions
Length - 74' 0"
Width - 20' 11.75"
Cargo Space
Length - 42' 9 "
Width - 14' 6"
Max. Weight Capacity
60 Short Tons
Personnel

200 Combat Equipped Passengers Standing
120 Passengers Seated
Range (load and sea
state dependent)
348 Nautical Miles Light
284 Nautical Miles Loaded
Max. Speed 11 Knots (12.6 MPH) Light
9 Knots (10.3 MPH) Loaded
Draft 4' 6"
Fuel Capacity 950 gallons
Fuel Consumption
30 Gallons Per Hour Loaded (31.66 hours)
Engine Displacement
4 x 425 cubic inches
Four Detroit Diesels/boat
Engine Horsepower
165bhp @ 1,800 RPM per engine

[Roddoss72]

Originally Posted by JohnnieB

Some points for consideration.

At the time the weight of the Agricultural Tractor Mk III Ausf H was 21.6 tonnes.



The weight of the Agricultural Tractor Mk IV Ausf D was 20 tonnes.


2 of the Agricultural Tractors would require a vessel payload of approximately 40 tonnes, call it 50 tonnes for safety. Your 70 tonnes exceeds this by a factor of 40%.

Alternatively, 3 Agricultural Tractor Mk III or IV would fit within your stated payload of 70 tonnes. This would require a larger (by volume) vessel, but would be a more efficient use of resources.

You may be able to refine your design in order to save time, materials and cost.

A modern guide for this might be the LCM-8. It has a welldeck of 13 metres long and 4.5 metres wide, so a couple of Agricultural Tractors Mk IV Ausf. D will fit both in terms of size and weight. It will also carry 200 armed troops.



It does however weigh 48 tonnes. Now given an ancillary portion of, say 13 tonnes, this leaves 35 tonnes of bare bone boat. Constructing 2,500 of them would require approximately 87,500 tonnes of steel. Equipping them would require the dedication of 10,000 engines- large engines, preferably marine diesels.

That’s a lot of steel when steel was in fact over-allocated, that is there was more steel being allocated than was being produced. It was generally allocated to the last person or agency who whined to Hitler. (Tooze, Wages of Destruction)

What would the Heer’s reaction be? This steel and those engines could have become tanks.

As far as using the 20mm FlaKvierling 38 L / 112.5, It only entered service in March, 1940. A total of 3,768 were produced during the entire war. It had an effective ceiling of 2,200 metres.



You may wish to consider the 37mm FlaK 37 L / 98. It had a similar total weight of fire, had an effective ceiling of 4,800 metres and a similar weight in operation. Over 12,000 were produced.



But let’s distribute them to the farmers. 48 tonnes. Hmmm. It weighs roughly twice what the current Agricultural Tractor Mk III weighs.

It is significantly larger. Will it fit along the roads, will it fit across the bridges? What vehicles are to be used to transport them?

Better to hide them in plain sight.

The average farm in Germany, exclusive of the huge estates, was between 10 and 30 hectares. (Tooze, Wages of Destruction) They operated with horsepower, sorry, horse power. What are even going to pretend to do with an item resembling an LCM-8?


The LCM is a very versatile craft. For details on LCM - 8 Users Guide

but highlights include:
Vessel Dimensions
Length - 74' 0"
Width - 20' 11.75"
Cargo Space
Length - 42' 9 "
Width - 14' 6"
Max. Weight Capacity
60 Short Tons
Personnel

200 Combat Equipped Passengers Standing
120 Passengers Seated
Range (load and sea
state dependent)
348 Nautical Miles Light
284 Nautical Miles Loaded
Max. Speed 11 Knots (12.6 MPH) Light
9 Knots (10.3 MPH) Loaded
Draft 4' 6"
Fuel Capacity 950 gallons
Fuel Consumption
30 Gallons Per Hour Loaded (31.66 hours)
Engine Displacement
4 x 425 cubic inches
Four Detroit Diesels/boat
Engine Horsepower
165bhp @ 1,800 RPM per engine

Salutations JohnnieB

I went back to see the original question and it poses i can be creative on how i would see a probable Operation Seelöwe.

It did not ask all the technical details right down to the last nut and bolt, i am not technically minded, never have and never will, i just wanted to answer the question with some level of latitude with my level of or the lack there of technological knowlegde.

So in this spirit i won't go down the path that you want. If you want this to be absolutely specific to every nut and bolt then i suggest you start another thread on the issue.

Regards

Roddoss72

[JohnnieB]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

Salutations JohnnieB

I went back to see the original question and it poses i can be creative on how i would see a probable Operation Seelöwe.

It did not ask all the technical details right down to the last nut and bolt, i am not technically minded, never have and never will, i just wanted to answer the question with some level of latitude with my level of or the lack there of technological knowlegde.

So in this spirit i won't go down the path that you want. If you want this to be absolutely specific to every nut and bolt then i suggest you start another thread on the issue.

Regards

Roddoss72

Ah, yes, technical ....

Actual facts are such inconvenient things.

[Aussie Dave]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

Salutations JohnnieB

I went back to see the original question and it poses i can be creative on how i would see a probable Operation Seelöwe.

It did not ask all the technical details right down to the last nut and bolt, i am not technically minded, never have and never will, i just wanted to answer the question with some level of latitude with my level of or the lack there of technological knowlegde.

So in this spirit i won't go down the path that you want. If you want this to be absolutely specific to every nut and bolt then i suggest you start another thread on the issue.

Regards

Roddoss72

Fair enough, I can see your point that a certain level of latitude (but Not ignoring the obvious impossibilities.) should/could be given to your plans.

However, in future please remember this thread is open to ALL members and their opinions.
It is NOT polite forum etiquette to suggest to another member to 'Go Away' when they disagree with, or reply to your posts with answers/questions you don't like.

Originally Posted by JohnnieB

Ah, yes, technical ....

Actual facts are such inconvenient things.

Now JohnnieB good.

Please keep in mind this is a "What If?" thread and is pure fiction anyway.
(No one is suggesting you have to throw out the 'Laws of Physics' or ignore the impossible.)



Remember gentlemen, this is supposed to be friendly debate.



Cheers,
Dave

[Roddoss72]

Originally Posted by Aussie Dave

Fair enough, I can see your point that a certain level of latitude (but Not ignoring the obvious impossibilities.) should/could be given to your plans.

However, in future please remember this thread is open to ALL members and their opinions.
It is NOT polite forum etiquette to suggest to another member to 'Go Away' when they disagree with, or reply to your posts with answers/questions you don't like.

Now JohnnieB good.

Please keep in mind this is a "What If?" thread and is pure fiction anyway.
(No one is suggesting you have to throw out the 'Laws of Physics' or ignore the impossible.)



Remember gentlemen, this is supposed to be friendly debate.



Cheers,
Dave

Salutations Aussie Dave

Please do not misunderstand me over what i said to JohhnieB, i actually think he is legitimately asking me to provide details on the construction techniques on the landing barges i am not angry in any way or upset, i just don't have the knoweldge to answer him.

I asked if he wanted actual technological development for Operation Seelowe then he can start another thread on the matter, sort of like this "what technological development were needed by the Germans to carry out Seelowe", i really welcome JohnnieB inquieries, they challenge me and for that i thank him for it. And i certainly did not suggest to JohnnieB to "Go Away" if such a sentiment was felt by JohnnieB then i appologise.

The way i answered was if i had put myself in Hitler's shoes with a healthy dose of hindsight.

Regards

Roddoss72