Operation Sealion

[Aussie Dave]

No problem Roddoss72, just trying to put a halt to any hostilites between two members mate before they get serious.

BTW, JohnnieB didn't 'flag' your post and complain about it, I was reading this thread and came across the posts myself.

Be mindful that we don't always express ourselves in WRITTEN posts clearly enough and can leave them open to various (mis-)interpretations by others.


Anyhow... No harm, No foul.



Cheers,
Dave

[JohnnieB]

Originally Posted by Aussie Dave

Now JohnnieB good.

Cheers,
Dave

[Aussie Dave]

Originally Posted by JohnnieB

LOL

[MAGNA]

Perhaps a nice solution with the barges would have been to use them in the canal system which was large and design modular drop in extras (AA mounts for example) when the time came to use them in action. The other possible advantage is that they would be easy to move as they would already be in the canals being used to transport "industrial products". Ramps built along the canals would help explain the front ramps on the barges.

[PanzerBob]

Boy oh Boy a Sealion thread, I does love what ifs!!

I never read the one from the unmentionable place, but have read others. Most get twisted along the lines of Rule Britannia and “the what happened in real time.” arguments I believe and I see it starting here, one must open the brain box really make it a what if.

The WWII timeline be darned. R72 has the right tact here, some others have strategic industrial knowledge plus a whole bunch of us have all our built up knowledge of our years as WWII buffs. Between all of us we should be able to render asunder history and figure out what (covers a lot of topics) would have to have changed to make this Operation happen. In Alt History Sh*t Happens because it's all in our heads. I have my own ideas as well, and I do like the Agri-barge idea although I don't think 2,500 would have been needed solving the raw material problem. I'll get back later with my AH as well!! R72 keep working out your AH and maybe any others throw them in as well and it wouldn't surprise me we can have the Royal Family being whisked away to Canada before we know it.

We all know that the Luftwaffe winning the BoB would have not allowed Sealion to happen. Sooo what must change????

BTW R72, nice twist changing the name as well!

Bob out

[deathandglory]

In 1974 the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst gathered together retired British and German High Ranking Officers to fight a table top wargame based on Operation Sea Lion.

The only rules were to try to follow the orders in place in 1940 for such an event.


The outcome was something like this:

The Germans tried an amphibious assault across the English Channel combined with paratrooper drops behind the coast. The aim was to push inland to London.

However!!!

The British defences were arranged with killing zones and stop lines from the coast all the way back to the capital.
The Royal Navy from Scapa Flow cut off the channel and together with the RAF and coastal batteries destroyed the German fleet.
The Germans had under estimated the amount of armour and infantry still remaining in the home counties and although technically superior they were stopped approx 20 miles inland.

This was the outcome in 1974 and maybe Hitler had a premonition of this wargame and so decided not to take the chance!!!!

This is taking the what if? scenario to the extreme.

At least we can stop saying if Hitler followed us over from Dunkirk we would all be talking German now!!

[Roddoss72]

Originally Posted by deathandglory

In 1974 the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst gathered together retired British and German High Ranking Officers to fight a table top wargame based on Operation Sea Lion.

The only rules were to try to follow the orders in place in 1940 for such an event.


The outcome was something like this:

The Germans tried an amphibious assault across the English Channel combined with paratrooper drops behind the coast. The aim was to push inland to London.

However!!!


The British defences were arranged with killing zones and stop lines from the coast all the way back to the capital.
The Royal Navy from Scapa Flow cut off the channel and together with the RAF and coastal batteries destroyed the German fleet.
The Germans had under estimated the amount of armour and infantry still remaining in the home counties and although technically superior they were stopped approx 20 miles inland.

This was the outcome in 1974 and maybe Hitler had a premonition of this wargame and so decided not to take the chance!!!!

This is taking the what if? scenario to the extreme.

At least we can stop saying if Hitler followed us over from Dunkirk we would all be talking German now!!

Salutations deathandglory

I have seen something on this, the Sandhurst Games as they have come to be known have been relied upon to explain the way Germany could not invade Britain.

Fair enough i say but what restriction were place upon the British, like the fact that during the Norwegian and French debarcle that the British alone lost and estimate.

1, 67,000 automobiles
2, 400 tanks/armoured vehicles
3, 200+ aircraft,
4, several thousand horses
5, 35,000 PoW's
6, 400+ RN vessels of all classes
7, 10,000's of weapons (including the bulk of the heavy artillery that the British had)
8, and last but not least 750,000 tonnes of supplies

Were these impositions placed upon the British, i suspect they weren't.
Regards

Roddoss72

[redcoat]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

Salutations deathandglory

I have seen something on this, the Sandhurst Games as they have come to be known have been relied upon to explain the way Germany could not invade Britain.

Fair enough i say but what restriction were place upon the British, like the fact that during the Norwegian and French debarcle that the British alone lost and estimate.

1, 67,000 automobiles
2, 400 tanks/armoured vehicles
3, 200+ aircraft,
4, several thousand horses
5, 35,000 PoW's
6, 400+ RN vessels of all classes
7, 10,000's of weapons (including the bulk of the heavy artillery that the British had)
8, and last but not least 750,000 tonnes of supplies

Were these impositions placed upon the British, i suspect they weren't.
Regards

Roddoss72

They were, the strength of the defences were based on the actual forces available to the British at the time.

ps, The figure for RN losses is way off the mark, even including vessels as small as M/S trawlers the figure is nearer to 50.

At Dunkirk the Allies lost nearly 100 vessels of over 9 tons GRT the vast majority of which were civilian craft requisitioned by the RN

[Roddoss72]

Originally Posted by redcoat

They were, the strength of the defences were based on the actual forces available to the British at the time.

ps, The figure for RN losses is way off the mark, even including vessels as small as M/S trawlers the figure is nearer to 50.

At Dunkirk the Allies lost nearly 100 vessels of over 9 tons GRT the vast majority of which were civilian craft requisitioned by the RN

Salutations redcoat

It seems to me that the British had very good almost superhuman qualities to recover those looses in a very quick time (approx 4 weeks), have the "Sandhurst games" been revisited since with more information that has come to light since 1974, we are talking about a series of game that are over 34 years old.

Also one thing that has me questioning the "Sandhurst Games" is that why since then has there been a vast amount of books written ex British Army Officers that Germany would have been able to carry out an invasion of Britain.

Regards

Roddoss72

[redcoat]

Originally Posted by Roddoss72

Salutations redcoat

It seems to me that the British had very good almost superhuman qualities to recover those looses in a very quick time (approx 4 weeks),

Try nearer 17 weeks. The soonest practical time the Germans could have launched an invasion was late September.

have the "Sandhurst games" been revisited since with more information that has come to light since 1974, we are talking about a series of game that are over 34 years old.

What 'more information' ?????
The figures available haven't changed

Also one thing that has me questioning the "Sandhurst Games" is that why since then has there been a vast amount of books written ex British Army Officers that Germany would have been able to carry out an invasion of Britain.

Vast amount ?????
I know of one British author who thinks it could have been done, but I don't know of a single historian who agrees with him