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What If? Discussion of "what if?" scenarios, alternate outcomes and timelines, etc. Please keep it civil in here.

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old May 15th, 2008, 02:15 AM
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Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Salutations All

I have had this little senario running and i hope you like it. And please don't take it seriously.


23rd May 1940: After getting positive reports from his field commander Generaloberst Gerd von Rundstedt reports to Fuhrer Adolf Hitler who orders an all out attack the four panzer divisions on the trapped BEF, 1st French Army and Belgian Army for the following day.

24th May 1940: German attack on the Dunkerque Pocket postponed for 24 hours to allow more infantry support to move into position.

25th May 1940:Generaloberst Gerd von Rundstedt orders the attack on the Dunkerque Pocket to begin.

26th May 1940: Operation Dynamo is set in motion, this is the planned evacuation of the Dunkerque Pocket.

27th May 1940: King Leopold III orders his army to surrender to German forces, which by the end of the day they do.

28th May 1940: German forces complete a route of the Dunkerque Pocket, with the capture of 220,000 British and 120,000 French and 35,000 other troops.

30th May 1940; Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill announces to a shocked British public of the capture of the BEF.

5th June 1940: German forces begin their southern thrust in France.

11th June 1940: Paris is declared an open city.

12th June 1940: British 51st Highland Infantry Division is forced to surrender within the St. Valery-en-Crux area.

14th June 1940: Prime Minister Winston Churcill delivers his famous "Fight them on the beaches speach". Aslo on this day German forces enter Paris.

16th June 1940: Prime Minister Paul Reynaud of France resigns and is replaced by Philippe Petain who begins armistice overtures towards Germany, also Petain orders any remaining British troops out of France.

20th June 1940: Italy invades France.

22nd June 1940: France signs an armistice with Germany.

24th June 1940: France signs an armistice with Italy.

25th June 1940: Hostilities cease in France.

27th June 1940: Prime Minister Philippe Petain and his Governemnt finalise their move to Vichy.

30th June 1940: Germany occupies the Channel Islands.

3rd July 1940: British Royal Naval Taskforce H under the command of Admiral Sir James Sommerville attacks the Vichy French Fleet at Oran/MSK after a deadline to join his forces is rejected.

4th July 1940: Anti-British protests are held throughtout both Occupied and Vichy France.

5th July 1940: Vichy France cuts all diplomatic ties with Britain.

11th July 1940: Political stability comes to Vichy France with Marshal Philippe Petain is sworn in as President and Head of State while Admiral Jean Darlan is appointed as Prime Minister and Minister for War.

13th July 1940: Final death toll at Oran/MSA reached 7,892 KIA and 13,547 WIA.

14th July 1940: President Marshal Philippe Petain and Prime Minister JAdmiral Jean Darlan arrive in Berlin to meet with Fuhrer Adolf Hitler and Il Duce Benito Musolini to discuss a renegotiation of the Armistice Treaties.

I'll Add more later.

Regards

Roddoss72
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Old May 15th, 2008, 05:53 AM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Interesting stuff. Two questions, how does Italy invade? Overland (mountains) or by sea.

Also, do we (the British), still get to sink the French fleet? I always liked that bit!

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Old May 15th, 2008, 08:22 PM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Salutations All

Continuations of serial.

16th July 1940: At the Reichtag, Berlin. With Il Duce Benito Musolini and the Japanese Ambassador to Germany attending, French President Marshal Pilippe Petain and Prime Minister & Minister for War Admiral Jean Darlan on behalf of France signs the Tripartite Pact. Germany, Italy and Japan formally recognise the birth of the French fourth republic.

18th July 1940: Fuhrer Adolf Hitler issues Fuhrerdirective 21 which formally approves of Operation Fall Braun (Case Brown) the military defeat of Britian. Fall Braun includes Operation Alder (Eagle) the defeat of the RAF by Axis air units, Operation Haifische (Shark) the occupation and control of the English Channel and Operation Seelowe (Sea Lion) the air and ground invasion of Britain. Fall Braun to be launched early August.

19th July 1940: French Government exits Vichy for Paris. President Marshal Philippe Petain on behalf of France announces that as of 12.00hrs Paris time France formally declares war on Britain. German Luftflottes 1 and 4 are ordered to South of France and Italy respectively.

20th July 1940: With the help of German Army, little known Norwegian Nazi Party leader Vidkum Quisling becomes President, who signs the Tripartite Pact with Germany.

22nd July 1940: 5th & 9th Battleship division of the Royal Italian Navy are ordered to Toulon, France and Tunisia respectively. Regia Aeronautica begins deployment of 35 S.M-79 II Torpedo Bombers to Tunisia, this is re-enforced with 65 fighters.

26th July 1940: Fuhrer Adolf Hitler arrives in Spain to meet with President General Francisco Franco on Spain joining the Axis.

28th July 1940: President General Francisco Franco secretly agrees to join the Axis and will allow the transit of four German divisions through Spain bound for Gibraltar. Fuhrer Adolf Hitler issues Fuhrerdirective 24 approving of Operation Felix, the capture of Gibraltar. Arrival of Royal Italian 5th & 9th Battleship Division in Toulon and Tunisia respectively, vanguard of Luftflotte 4 to Tunisia.

29th July 1940: Vanguard of Luftflotte 1 to Southern Italy. In France, Netherlans, Belgium and Norway Luftflottes 2, 3 & 5 begin to be deployed. President Vidkum Quisling of Norway declares war on Britain for mining her territorial waters while she was neutral.

30th July 1940: Italian 1st Army begins to arrive in the Cherbourg area to take up garrison duties. I Luftlande Korp established in Cuxhaven, containing the 7th Flieger, 22nd Luftlande, 251st Infantrie and Gropfdeutschland Infantrie Divisions, I Luftlande Korp begin intensive training.

31st July 1940: Luftlfottes 1 & 4 complete their deployments to Southern Italy and Tunisia respectively.

To be continued......

Regards

Roddoss72
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Old May 15th, 2008, 11:52 PM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolster View Post
Interesting stuff. Two questions, how does Italy invade? Overland (mountains) or by sea.

Also, do we (the British), still get to sink the French fleet? I always liked that bit!

Much of June was lost as the Italian armed forces prepared for an invasion. On 21 June, troops of the Italian Royal Army crossed the French border in three places. The Italian army attacked in two directions. The Italians attacked through the Alps and they attacked on the Mediterranean sealine towards Nice. Initially, the Italian offensive enjoyed a limited level of success. The French defensive lines on the Italian border were weakened due to French High Command shuffling forces to fight the Germans. Some French mountain units were sent to Norway. However, the Italian offensive soon stalled at the fortified Alpine Line in the Alps region and at the southern end of the Maginot Line in the Mediterranean region. The Italian forces advanced only about 5 miles and were stopped in the vicinity of the town of Menton.

Roughly thirty-two Italian divisions were available (not all were employed) and they suffered over 5,000 casualties. The French had six divisions and they lost 8 men.

Italian invasion of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by Jim O; May 16th, 2008 at 06:32 PM. Reason: no words changed. made it more readable.
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Old May 15th, 2008, 11:56 PM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
Salutations All

18th July 1940: Fuhrer Adolf Hitler issues Fuhrerdirective 21 which formally approves of Operation Fall Braun (Case Brown) the military defeat of Britian. Fall Braun includes Operation Alder (Eagle) the defeat of the RAF by Axis air units, Operation Haifische (Shark) the occupation and control of the English Channel and Operation Seelowe (Sea Lion) the air and ground invasion of Britain. Fall Braun to be launched early August.

Regards

Roddoss72
Alder is a tree. Eagle in German is Adler: A-D-L-E-R.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 02:13 AM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
Salutations All

18th July 1940: Fuhrer Adolf Hitler issues Fuhrerdirective 21 which formally approves of Operation Fall Braun (Case Brown) the military defeat of Britian. Fall Braun includes Operation Alder (Eagle) the defeat of the RAF by Axis air units, Operation Haifische (Shark) the occupation and control of the English Channel and Operation Seelowe (Sea Lion) the air and ground invasion of Britain. Fall Braun to be launched early August.

Regards

Roddoss72
Alder is a tree. Eagle in German is Adler: A-D-L-E-R.
Salutations JohnnieB

Thanx for the correction slip of the finger in typing. I get the feeling i know you from somewhere.

Regards

Roddoss72
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Old May 23rd, 2008, 01:58 AM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Salutations All

More installments

2nd to 4th August 1940: German and Italian air units in North Western Africa complete their deployments.

5th August 1940: German bombers and fighters from Luftflotte 4 launch Operation Felix with a pre-dawn attack on the RAF base in Gibraltar destroying aircraft on the ground, and heavily damaging the RAF bases infrastructure. A second wave attacks just after dawn and as the second wave attacks the RAF base, 35 S.M-79 II torpedo bombers attack Taskforce H. Within minutes Taskforce H suffers catastrohic losses with the main loss of HMS Hood, Ark Royal, Resolution and Valiant. During the rest of the day German and Italian aircraft continue to attack Gibraltar.

5th/6th August 1940: During the night the Heavy units of the Royal Italian and French Republic ships move into position undetected.

6th August 1940: 0730hrs Delegation on behalf of Vice Admiral Gensoul is sent into Gibratlar to issue an ultimatum of unconditional surrender to the British, upon delivering the delegation returns.
1000hrs the ultimatum expires all Italian and French battleships and cruisers open fire on Gibraltar, this is in conjunction of heavy aerial bombing from German and Italian aircraft.
1230hrs Gibraltar capitulates, German forces begin to enter Gibraltar as an occupational force.
1300hrs Admiral Sir James Sommerville signs the surrender terms.
2200hrs Vice Admiral Gensoul convenes a court martial and charges Admiral Sir James Sommerville with war crimes for its unprovoked attack on the Oran/MSK Fleets, this includes 200 officers from Taskforce H.
2230hrs all are found guilty and are condemned to death.

7th August 1940: With a French film crew filming Admiral Sir James Sommerville and 200 other officers are executed. Later that day in London Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill announces to Parliament of the capture of Gibraltar and the executions of its servicemen. Fuhrer Adolf Hitler is bouyed by the capture of Gibraltar and confirms that Britain will be invaded.

Regards

Roddoss72
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Old May 23rd, 2008, 09:09 PM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
Salutations All

2200hrs Vice Admiral Gensoul convenes a court martial and charges Admiral Sir James Sommerville with war crimes for its unprovoked attack on the Oran/MSK Fleets, this includes 200 officers from Taskforce H.
2230hrs all are found guilty and are condemned to death.


7th August 1940: With a French film crew filming Admiral Sir James Sommerville and 200 other officers are executed. Later that day in London Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill announces to Parliament of the capture of Gibraltar and the executions of its servicemen. Fuhrer Adolf Hitler is bouyed by the capture of Gibraltar and confirms that Britain will be invaded.

Regards

Roddoss72
That quoted part leaps out at me. The governing Convention is the Hague Convention IX of 1907, found here:

The Avalon Project - Laws of War : Bombardment by Naval Forces in Time of War (Hague IX); October 18, 1907

it states
Quote:
CHAPTER I
The Bombardment of Undefended Ports, Towns,
Villages, Dwellings, or Buildings

Article 1.
The bombardment by naval forces of undefended ports, towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings is forbidden.

A place cannot be bombarded solely because automatic submarine contact mines are anchored off the harbour.

Art. 2.
Military works, military or naval establishments, depots of arms or war mat riel, workshops or plant which could be utilized for the needs of the hostile fleet or army, and the ships of war in the harbour, are not, however, included in this prohibition. The commander of a naval force may destroy them with artillery, after a summons followed by a reasonable time of waiting, if all other means are impossible, and when the local authorities have not themselves destroyed them within the time fixed.

He incurs no responsibility for any unavoidable damage which may be caused by a bombardment under such circumstances.

If for military reasons immediate action is necessary, and no delay can be allowed the enemy, it is understood that the prohibition to bombard the undefended town holds good, as in the case given in paragraph 1, and that the commander shall take all due measures in order that the town may suffer as little harm as possible.
This is likely to come back to bite you on the a$$, even overlooking a couple of fairly other huge assumptions. Article 2 seems to be a fairly concise description of what the RN did. That makes 1/2 hour show trials a crime of war.
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Old May 24th, 2008, 10:30 PM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

Salutations JohnnieB

If you don't like my thread then pester someone else, i dont know how many times i have said it not to be taken seriously, now i know who you are.

Regards

Roddoss72
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Old May 25th, 2008, 02:16 AM
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Re: Oran/MSK The British Debarcle.

I'm sensing a certain vibe here, but I'll limit myself to this for now.
Members are reminded that this forum is about the friendly exchange of information and discussion. F.R.I.E.N.D.L.Y.
Any other spirit will not be tolerated for very long.
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