Hitler Should have not been medaling .

[Kurttis Thomas]

Thanks for that but then again Germany could have used that extra time to defeat Britain and if Hitler hadn't been stupid and declared war on the U.S. Which really didn't want a war. Than he could have started a grand build up of forces plus he would have had time to perfect the tanks That came around in 43 44 like the Royal Tiger and the Ferdinad and the Tiger I plus he would have had the time to produce more of the older tanks and the newer tanks in more numerous numbers but then who knows the Ferdinand and the royal Tiger Might not have come around until he invaded Russia. But he would have problably made the switch from the 37mm and 50mm Panzer III's to the long baralled panzer IV and might have had some time to at least start re equiping his air force with the ME262 fighter. But the Tiger I would have problably came around during 1942 any way which could have been used as an advantage. But your most likely right.

[McCoy]

The Tiger I would be in production as it allready was in the pipeline but hardly the other AFV's that was a product of the warfare in the east. So no Panther, Ferdinand/Elefant n' Tiger II. It's not even sure that the Pz IV would have been developed past the Ausf. F1 as the Pz. III would fit the bill with it's 50mm L/60. The same goes for the Russians, They wouldn't have the T-34/85 or IS series but they would have more than plenty of T-34/76 n' KV-1 in the arsenal.

[cyberia]

McCoy is right. Weapon development is an evolutionary process spurred on by necessity. One design is conjured to counter another and so on.

If you're going to change events and time lines you pretty much have to toss out weapon development as it occurred historically.

[McCoy]

That's my point on it anyway!

But I've got another point to make. If we should continue with the what if instead of dealin' with what's the original topic here this thread needs to be moved (yet again) to the corresponding section so please stay on topic.

[Freightshaker]

Originally Posted by TRDG

But then would they have had the T-34/85s and other types of tanks, also the experience level to actually use the deep penetration tactics...... Like I said, a double edged sword, the Germans might have also evolved their "Blitz" as well to, so that could be a a horse apiece maybe.....??

Tom

As McCoy and Cyberia posted, weapons development would've continued as needed but I believe Russia would still hold the upper hand since they were ahead of Germany in armor development.

Russia gained the best operational experience in 1942 with the defeat at 2nd Karkhov and the battles around Stalingrad. By mid 43' they had discovered one of the weaknesses in Blitzkrieg and exploited it brilliantly at Kursk. Again, I see no change in the end result.

Originally Posted by Kurttis Thomas

Thanks for that but then again Germany could have used that extra time to defeat Britain and if Hitler hadn't been stupid and declared war on the U.S. Which really didn't want a war. Than he could have started a grand build up of forces plus he would have had time to perfect the tanks That came around in 43 44 like the Royal Tiger and the Ferdinad and the Tiger I plus he would have had the time to produce more of the older tanks and the newer tanks in more numerous numbers but then who knows the Ferdinand and the royal Tiger Might not have come around until he invaded Russia. But he would have problably made the switch from the 37mm and 50mm Panzer III's to the long baralled panzer IV and might have had some time to at least start re equiping his air force with the ME262 fighter. But the Tiger I would have problably came around during 1942 any way which could have been used as an advantage. But your most likely right.

There's alot of if's there. All the German production takes for granted that Hitler stays out of weapons development and that Germany moves to a war production footing. Neither happened soon enough.

[Kurttis Thomas]

Sory guys I was a pretty sleepy when I wrote that sorry plus I guess I wasn't thinking thanks for the constructed critizism though.

[LAH 1 SS]

germanies greates problem was a war on three fronts western europe eastern europe and africa. the intial drive through stalingrad to the vistulla oil fields should have been germanies priority. if rommel had had succeded in africa it would have given germany the african seaports plus would have made russia think of a possible invasion from africa. the other factor that hasnt been discussed was the germans pleaded with japan to attack russia which would have been a war for russia on two fronts a plan that is so often overlooked. this we know never eventuated one becuase of the russian and japan peace treaty plus the japanese attacked america which brought the americans into a war that they didnt really want to partake in. now if all this had gone to plan it is very feesible that russia would have been defeated in 41. i dont think time frames would realy make a differnce i think if russia was invaded later on the attack would not have lasted germany was already starting to get stretched resource wise from very late 42 to early 43. hitler made many gambles pouring resources into camapaigns eg battle for britian that had no results the failure to recognise that these battles contributed to the dwindling german military machine was hilters ultimate defeat

[grognard]

If Germany did not have to deal with Britain and had gone on full war production and treated the non-russian peoples of the USSR well, they might have won. That's three ifs, and the Nazis were not known for treating anyone well.

If Hitler waited until 1942, the russians would have been stronger--more T-34s and Kv-1s, more modern A/C. Also, The soviets had discussed a "pre-emptive strike" but were waiting until their forces were ready.

A delay in the attack just makes things worse for Germany unless the Germans prepare for a long struggle. Their is NO WAY Hitler can win quickly against the Soviets.

[MAGNA]

I have to say Cyberia's point about the treatment of the Russian civilians and POW's is a major factor in the loss of the war in the East. With proper treatment the numbers willing fighters and, more importantly, workers, would have made a huge impact. The failure to cooperatively harness the Ukraine's capability for food production along with tens of thousands of workers for defensive use and weapons production is a strategic and doctrinal blunder of the highest order.

[cyberia]

The same is true of Eastern Poland at the onset of Barbarossa.