Hitler Should have not been medaling .

[Kurttis Thomas]

If you have ever noticed hitler didn't seem to care for genrals advice when he invaded Russia. If you ask me thats one of the major reasons why he lost against the soviets. Another thing is he liked to meddle around with things exe tank forces. when he invaded Russia he wanted to get to Moscow before the autum rains. This would be acomplished by using the Blitzgrieg tactics he used to conqure almost all of Eroupe. He invaded Russia with thre army groups the strongest of which was army group center then there was army group norht and south. Army group center had the most tanks of the three. they were chargred with capturing Moscow. Hitler was making huge progres with all the army groups he has total air supirioraty and tank supirioraty. Even with this he is making less progress in the south because of better organized resistence. He was making head way everywear espcially in the center, but after a while he started to medal with his tank forces. He moved the bulk of the tanks from Army group center to the other two which were largely made of of infantry that were largely reliant on their feet. Eventhough the Blitzgrieg tactics stated that the infantry should be mobilized. Thias meant that the tank spear heads would somtimes get days ahead of the bulk of the infantry. This meant that somtimes that they would have to wait for them to catch up. also supply lines were being streched. Then he decided to move the tanks back to army group center which took up the limited time that they had before the fall and the winter. By the time every thing was where they were supposed to be the autum rains started russia had very little paved roads outside of large cities and because of this and the almost never ending rain the advance was slowed cosiderably. when the winter came the roads froze and the advance started up again but now the poor guys are freezing in their summer uniforms. Well one day they get in binocular range of Moscow and they think well one more bg push and we'll have won well that night tanks freeze up so do the wepons and the russians launch some counterattacks which turn into counter offensives they push the germans back about 60 and then some more and you know the rest it turned into 1942. Which had it's summer offensive but none ever got that close to moscow again. I think that if Hitler hadn't medaled that he could have won the war in Russia at least by the end of the autum or the begining of the winter.

[Freightshaker]

Hitler lost in Russia the day he invaded. The German Army was using a short term doctrine (typical Prussian "quick and lively war") against the largest country in the world. Time and the vast expanses of Russia doomed Hitler to failure. He also grossly underestimated the size of the Russian Army and his prejudice kept him from accepting what a difficult opponent the Russians could be. Logistically, Germany was ill prepared for a long campaign. Shortages were already occurring during the push on Moscow. Hitler or not, Barbarossa would not have succeeded.

[cyberia]

I'm not so sure about that F.S.

If you take a look at the amount of territory covered, equipment destroyed and number of prisoners taken, I'd say their chances were pretty good.

True logistics were stacked against them, but up until late 1942 they had a pretty good track record for pulling off the impossible.

Plus, they had wireless communication.

In my opinion, what put the nail in the Ost Front campaign coffin was the nazi policy that came in behind the Wehrmacht. When you see photos of hundreds of Russian prisoners being herded into captivity by a hand full of Heer on bicycles, that's not a "difficult opponent", that's an army that would have turned on Stalin for food and decent treatment.

Hitler screwed up plenty as far as the war went but it was nazi brutality that turned a people who, in large numbers, at first saw themselves as liberated rather than conquered and turned them into hardened enemies.

Had the Russian people been treated well, there are many who believe they would have joined the Wehrmacht by the millions and eventually Stalin and the Soviet state would had their backs to the Bearing Sea.

[TRDG]

I'd say a different timeframe here guys might have done the trick, so to speak, I'm on lunch now, but I'll check back and post up after work tonight!!

Cheers

Tom

[TRDG]

A double edged sword here, and a what if topic, but IF Hitler decided to invade, say the following year........ or so. Would there have been a difference as to forces, training and better arms?

I have always wondered if the Germans would have "caought on" to the T-34 somehow, then kick the Panther and Tiger up a bit more, or other designs, let alone other/ more (basic) men and equipment, maybe strike with a bit longer campaign in mind, and consider winter Russian fighting as well?
Russian would also have a year advantage to get their higher command in order from the purges, as well as train more and study the "German" way of war, I.E. Hitler and his generals. Maybe Britian was subdued or a treaty signed to that effect, then focus on Russia, I'm no expert here, but these are a couple of my thoughts on this for now at least.

Cheers

Tom

[LAH 1 SS]

i feel that when hitler split the main campaign to attack stalingrad and to gain the vast russian oil feilds, plus continue the main assault on moscow, that spelt disaster for the german army who was already feeling the pinch of an over stretched supply line. both battles absorbed alot of german supplies and troops. it also doesnt help that it was to be one of the coldest russian winters in history either. cyberia made a fair point in regards to the soviet people if they had had been treated well hitler would have had a very large volunteer army at his disposal to defeat the comuinists. however brutality was used and the russian nkvd squads spread the rumors and truths to the worried soviet people and troops which led to a ferocity never seen in soviet troops before revenge would be sweet. lastly hitler never was one for history if he had had been he would have learnt from napolean who failed in the very same way centuries before

[TRDG]

Great points LAH, I tend to agree there!!

Cheers, but thoughts on a later campaign if you would? Thanks.

Tom

[Freightshaker]

Originally Posted by TRDG

A double edged sword here, and a what if topic, but IF Hitler decided to invade, say the following year........ or so. Would there have been a difference as to forces, training and better arms?

I have always wondered if the Germans would have "caought on" to the T-34 somehow, then kick the Panther and Tiger up a bit more, or other designs, let alone other/ more (basic) men and equipment, maybe strike with a bit longer campaign in mind, and consider winter Russian fighting as well?
Russian would also have a year advantage to get their higher command in order from the purges, as well as train more and study the "German" way of war, I.E. Hitler and his generals. Maybe Britian was subdued or a treaty signed to that effect, then focus on Russia, I'm no expert here, but these are a couple of my thoughts on this for now at least.

Cheers

Tom

IMO, it would've been worse for the Germans. The T-34 had only started being incorporated into Tank Corps in 1940, by 1942 the transition would've been complete. Also, the mistake of abandoning 'Deep Battle' had been realized after the Russo-Finnish war and this doctrine was being transition into when Barbarossa launched. The Russians were really caught with their pants down in June 41; changing MBT's AND doctrine at the same time while being attacked by what was then the best army in the world but by the end of 42' Russia was starting to prove superior to the Germans in Operational Art.

On the "German way of war": Deep Battle and Blitzkrieg both originated and matured simultaneously. The purges eliminated most of DB's supporting generals, including Tukhachevsky, and any general with new ideas was seen as a revolutionary and an enemy of the state. IMHO, and historically, Deep Battle was superior to Blitzkrieg. They are basically the same but DB is on a much larger scale.
Deep operations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The longer Germany waits, the stronger Russia becomes.

[Kurttis Thomas]

What do you guys think would happen to Russia if Hitler Invaded in Mabye late 44 45 or 46?

[TRDG]

IMO, it would've been worse for the Germans. The T-34 had only started being incorporated into Tank Corps in 1940, by 1942 the transition would've been complete. Also, the mistake of abandoning 'Deep Battle' had been realized after the Russo-Finnish war and this doctrine was being transition into when Barbarossa launched. The Russians were really caught with their pants down in June 41; changing MBT's AND doctrine at the same time while being attacked by what was then the best army in the world but by the end of 42' Russia was starting to prove superior to the Germans in Operational Art.

On the "German way of war": Deep Battle and Blitzkrieg both originated and matured simultaneously. The purges eliminated most of DB's supporting generals, including Tukhachevsky, and any general with new ideas was seen as a revolutionary and an enemy of the state. IMHO, and historically, Deep Battle was superior to Blitzkrieg. They are basically the same but DB is on a much larger scale.
Deep operations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The longer Germany waits, the stronger Russia becomes.[/quote]

But then would they have had the T-34/85s and other types of tanks, also the experience level to actually use the deep penetration tactics...... Like I said, a double edged sword, the Germans might have also evolved their "Blitz" as well to, so that could be a a horse apiece maybe.....??

Cheers, a totally different war though to say the least, maybe intel as to who might have had the best at the specific "new time" of the invasion could be a factor, let alone the British and US forces here, What MIGHT have happened in Africa if the Germans put just some of those resources from the Eastern front towards that, a different story there to I think, but that again is for another topic, or maybe not, it might be considered as tied into this at some point.

Thanks for the good post fs, and a good topic to Kurt!!

Tom

For me, 1945 might be stretching it a bit.........