German-Polish conference over history planned

[Jim O]

29 August 2006


BERLIN - Parliament presidents of Germany and Poland on called Monday for a conference on the troubled history of both nations amid tensions over Germany's new emphasis on the fate of millions ethnic Germans expelled from what is today Poland.


German Bundestag President Norbert Lammert and Polish Sejm President Marek Jurek, said a meeting should address historical issues when both parliaments hold a planned joint session next year.


"We agree over the fact that this is a central, particularly sensitive topic," said Lammert...



Full article: Expatica's German news in English

[Klaus]

OOOOHHHH! That's a hot topic. But I think it is the right thing to do.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Klaus

OOOOHHHH! That's a hot topic. But I think it is the right thing to do.

It is indeed. See War Exhibit Further Strains German-Polish Relations.

[Klaus]

Looks like the polish prime minister is afraid of something.

"...would further muddy the issue of responsibility."
What's that crap (pardon me) about? Every idiot knows that Germany is to "blame for everything" that happened during the war. Some may even know Austria was part of the Reich. It is time to cut out the "We are so guilty" crap. I'm fed up. I don't have to feel guilty about anything. If you hear it for six years in school you are so fed up. If school didn't kill you, the media is sure to make the kill.

At least they spared Grass. But there are there elections coming up. So they gotta throw the mud somewhere else. Find an enemy. God I loathe politicans.

[Jim O]

Klaus,

I hear your frustration and cannot help but empathize. It is one thing to know the past of one's country, and to learn from it. To me that's the point of history, and the point of this site. You are no more to blame for the war than I am for the extermination of the American Indians or for the importation of African slaves to the US. When I hear such talk, I ask "What is your excuse today?". I have no desire feel guilt or to pay reparations with my tax dollars for events that occurred before my birth and in those cases, before my family even came to America.

I hope that of one thing is learned from the tragedy that was World War II it is that it not be repeated. It ended more than 60 years ago. Let's study it as intellectuals and as amateur (and professional) historians. But let it be over.

The losers paid a heavy price, particularly Germany and the German people. Others suffered too. But it was a long time ago and most of the real perpetrators are dead, as are most of the direct victims (not all, but most).

Back to this issue, ethnic Germans were not the only ones who were forcibly resettled after the war. The Soviets moved many people around (and were mainly to "blame" as they insisted on moving Poland's frontiers), with the other allies fully complicit. Of course who could blame Poland for not wanting an ethnic German minority in 1945 or even in 1955? But this is 2006.

[Lancer44]

Well, this is the worst time for German - Polish dialog and reconcilliation...

I really regret it. Nationalist government and president of Poland are strong forces which basically want to wipe all good which was done in the last 16 years.

Why they do this? Very simple - any weak political party need an enemy to justify it's existence. To excite most stupid part of society. In Poland it is fanatically catholic pensioners generation of 55+ years old.

Duck heads in Poland have two options:

1. Choose Belarus as a post-soviet enemy.
2. Play German card - easy way, because Erica Steinbach is making it easy for them.

Any able military analyst can tell you that hot conflict with Belarus would end up with Belarussian tanks taking Warsaw in 2 days. (much better result than Hoepner's in 1939)
Even German Leopards 2 -given for free by Germany to strenghten Polish Army would not help.

So the best option for dickheads are Germany... They are NATO, they cannot attack... hey Polish brigades and divisions are even part of German Armoured
Corps North... We train and sweat together... And in any case we will fight together - Bundeswehr and Polish Army. Afghanistan is the first sample.

Anyway, I'm not politician, I had an opportunity to be in the same prison cells with todays Polish politicians, we were arguing... They did not understand me...
I decided to live my life. I knew that I can do it in the West.
And I was right...

Now it is their turn. I can tell you that they will not last long.
Poland and Germany and European Union will finally find common platform.
Ducks want last until the end of next year....

Lancer44

[Klaus]

Time is very important when such things are discussed.
I just don't understand what the fuzz is all about. It's not the point of this exhibition to get dirt on Polish people. It just an exhibition about facts. Nothing more and nothing less. It's not about excuses. Or at least it shouldn't be.

But polish politicans (I don't know about the people opinion on this matter) Seem to have a hard time to deal with this. And I am glad that German politicans didn't back up as they usually do whe such a topic is concerned.

It just like the re-naming of Auschwitz. There seems to be a lot of anger.

[Lancer44]

Originally Posted by Klaus

Time is very important when such things are discussed.
I just don't understand what the fuzz is all about. It's not the point of this exhibition to get dirt on Polish people. It just an exhibition about facts. Nothing more and nothing less.

But polish politicans (I don't know about the people opinion on this matter) Seem to have a hard time to deal with this. And I am glad that German politicans didn't back up as they usually do whe such a topic is concerned.

It just like the re-naming of Auschwitz. There seems to be a lot of anger.

Hi Klaus,

Absolute stupidity... Well. I had no opportunity to see Erica's exhibition than "I have no right to voice my opinion"... But I will do it anyway!

I believe the main thing in Steinbach's exhibition was right - we have to see that Germans suffered too. And refugees suffering has to be separated from civilian population suffering - like - say, bombing.

WWII was the first conflict after which Powers arbitrarily moved not only borders on the maps, but also decided to do "ethnic cleansing".
Moving countries borders hundreds of kilometers, resettling millions of people... well it happened...

We cannot, however forget that the soviets were the main culprit that made the war possible. And that their territorial gains were very much behind all past 1945 population movements.

Talking about it, we should not forget forcible removal of Poles which refused to sign volksliste from Poland's western parts incorporated into Reich.

All belligerent sides are somewhat guilty.

Personally I believe that Germany and Poland should sign treaty which would end any private property claims.

Cheers,

Lancer44

[Klaus]

"Personally I believe that Germany and Poland should sign treaty which would end any private property claims."


That would be the best for us all.

"He who is without sin shall throw the first stone" (Hope I got that right)

If everybody kept this in mind, all this would be much easier.

[Jim O]

Here's a bit more on this general subject:

From: Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | PM attacks German president over expellees

Poland's prime minister, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, criticised German President Horst Köhler yesterday for addressing in Berlin 1,000 Vertriebene expelled from Poland after the second world war.

Mr Köhler urged Germans to work closely with Poland and be sensitive towards Polish concerns over the Forced Paths exhibition - condemned in Warsaw as portraying Germans as victims of the war.

Mr Kaczynski called it "one of the most disturbing events" of recent times and attacked the League of German Expellees, which represents 12.5 million Germans, for demanding back territory.

and from Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | Polish war dead log challenges Germany:

Poland is to name as many as possible of the more than 6 million Poles who perished in the second world war in a project aimed at countering what it sees as German attempts to rewrite history.

The announcement coincided with ceremonies marking the 67th anniversary of the German invasion of Poland in September 1939 and with a dispute between Berlin and Warsaw over historical truth.

The new nationalist Polish government, headed by twin brothers Jaroslaw and Lech Kaczynski, prime minister and president, are suspicious of Germany. They are outraged about an exhibition in Berlin on the plight of the millions of ethnic Germans expelled from eastern Europe, and alarmed at Russo-German energy pacts to bypass Poland and leave it vulnerable to Russian pressure.

"We are sitting in a city that was 80% destroyed by the Germans," Adam Lipinski, an aide to the prime minister, said of the Nazi razing of Warsaw in 1944. "How can we not have anything against the Germans? There's a huge amount of resentment among Poles. The Germans need to take into account that the Poles are very sensitive to what they say about the past."

The Stalinists who took over Poland at the end of the war calculated in 1947 that 6,028,000 Poles lost their lives in the war. Some 5 million were civilians. Half were Polish Jews murdered in the Holocaust.

The project will take years to complete but could then be augmented by an even bigger undertaking to catalogue depredations inflicted by the Soviet Union.

There is widespread sentiment in Poland that the outside world still fails to appreciate what Hitler and Stalin did to their country.