Michael Wittmann

[krieg]

what a great tank man .. thats all i haft to say
cheers krieg

[LAH 1 SS]

yeh he was a great commander and his tank skills were exceptional but like most decorated soldiers he hated the spot light another point to look at is his crew they were exceptional they were all very gifted

[LAH 1 SS]

now what is a wittmann thread with out some of his vehicles hope you enjoy
this is supposed to be wittmanns stug 3 a

wittmanns panzer 3 before he went to tigers


wittmann and his tiger 411


his tiger 1331

his tiger so4 which every one knows about


the trail goes cold for me there however here is the late version tiger he was in command of before villers bocage

and his final tiger

[Horch]

Great pictures LAH1 SS.I like the STUG 3, I don't think I have ever seen anything but a Tiger'

[LAH 1 SS]

yes i know thays why i put them in there it was the kills he was getting in the stug 3 that got his reputation started he honed his skills in this vehicle then went on to hone is command skills in the pz 3 m im trying to find more on these early tanks but not having much luck at the moment

[salinator]

Originally Posted by Hagen

The WW2 record I find most astonishing is Erich Hartmanns 352 aerial victories. I know that the Soviet planes and pilots weren't always the best but 352 is still an incredible tally.

1404 combat missions. A good pilot can do some damage.

Originally Posted by sniper1shot

You are all forgetting that Hartman started his climb when it was well into the middle of the war. Imagine what it would of been had he been fighting from the start.

The turkey shoot was over. Hartmann crashed landed on his first combat sortie. He was shot down/crashed 14 times, and was even once captured and escaped.

Let us not forget Hans Ulrich Rudel, the Stuka Pilot with over 500 tanks and a couple of ships to his credit too. That is not mentioning the light vehicles or anti-tank guns either.

Funny thing is Hartmann on the way to his first assignment was to ferry a Ju-87. He ended up crashing it into the Operations shack and was later transported himself by Ju-52.

The fact the both Hartman and Rudel survived the war is incredible too.

Hartmann spent 10 years in a Soviet prison and later joined the Bundesluftwaffe.

Rudel flew 2530 missions, a record that no other ever approached. He is the most decorated of all German combatants in WWII. Sadly he had too much attachment to the Nazi party.

Originally Posted by Tom Houlihan

Not to disparage Hartmann's record, but remember too that the Germans counted planes killed on the ground as well. Not all of his victories were air-to-air combat.

None of Hartmann's victories were on the ground. Of his tally, 260 were fighters, another leader.

[Horch]

Originally Posted by LAH 1 SS

yes i know thays why i put them in there it was the kills he was getting in the stug 3 that got his reputation started he honed his skills in this vehicle then went on to hone is command skills in the pz 3 m im trying to find more on these early tanks but not having much luck at the moment

Good luck. Looking forward to them.

[Brin]

Wish to raise a query and stimulate discussion regarding the model type and the turret numbering of Wittmann’s Panzer III during December 1942 to his ride in a Pz.VI #411 later in 1943. The reason for the query is due to the fact that I am slowly completing a model of the Pz.III, and wish to get the details as accurate as possible.

Have studied a few photos of the Panzers used by the LAH Division around the time of the battle for Kharkov in 1943. In doing so have observed a number discrepancies between the published authors. The two main questions are:-
1) What variant of the Pz.III was actually used by Wittmann in Feb. 1943?
Well Schneider makes reference to 15 of these being of the Ausf. J variant (Schneider, page 3), which would be all or nearly all the Pz.IIIs in the company. When tested against the available photographic evidence, Agate’s work includes a photo of Gunner Heinz Buchner sitting on a Pz.III of the Tiger Company’s Light Platoon (to which Wittmann was the platoon leader)(Agate, page 49). This Pz.III appears to be as labelled; an Ausf. J model, confirmed by the profile of a side turret observation port to the left of Buchner’s right elbow. This turret observation port was not fitted to the Ausf. L model onwards (Gander, page 18 & 19), but the presence of the spaced gun mantel armour shows it to be a late Ausf. J or a modified earlier model. However, upon turning the page in Agate’s publication another photo of a Pz.III is shown incorrectly as an Ausf. J model, which appears more like that of an Ausf. L (Agate, page 51). This is evident by the absence of the side turret observation port profile on the turret, coupled with the spaced armour to the gun mantled only having the correct number of apertures for an Ausf. L model being one, instead of the usual two to the left of the main gun of the Ausf. J model. So provided that Agate is correct in identifying this second Pz.III as being at Poltava and belonging to the LAH division (the latter confirmed by the divisional mark by the driver‘s port), it is clear that both Ausf. J and L models were used by the LAH company at this time. So in further querying the accuracy of Schneider’s broad statement concerning the Pz.III specifics; in consulting Restayn’s photos of the battle, two Pz.IIIs are shown (Restayn, page 242 & 243). The foremost one is again an Ausf. L, yet the one partly behind the fence seems to be an Ausf. M, determined by the presence of the turret mounted smoke grenades (Gander, page 23). Given that the accuracy of unit identification by Restayn is confirmed by the shoulder boards of the foremost tank commander and by the vehicle divisional labels, not only were Ausf. L models present but in addition Ausf. M models within the LAH division at this time. So the question remains as to which model was Wittmann’s Pz.III, an Ausf .J, L or M? Does anyone know of a photo of his actual tank? At the moment given all yet seen, personal choice would be for the Ausf. L model, as this was one of the newest and the most available of the different models. Comments……….

Do any members know who the decorated and wounded tank commander is in Restayn‘s book pages 242 & 243? Or the Officer inspecting the Pz.III in the foreground of the same?

2) What colour were the turret marking to #4L1 of Wittmann’s tank?
Consulting Schneider, he asserts that these “…Panzer IIIs also were painted in panzergrau. The divisional insignia was painted on the right hull front. Prior to the operation to retake Kharkov, the tanks received a winter camouflage of whitewash. The area around the turret numerals, the Balkenkreuze and the divisional insignia were left paint free.” (Schneider, pages 4 & 5). Of the opinion that a location of a vehicle is referenced to the position of the vehicle commander (or driver if the same), then the divisional markings are not on the right but the left! Re-visiting the above mentioned photos it is clear that the turret numbers were not uniform in application. For those applied to the rear stowage box were either solid in colour as #558 or white outlined as #555 (Restayn, page 277). In comparison, those applied to the sides of the turret appear in a solid colour, outlined in white as the P.z IV #605 (Restayn, page 278) as is the 251/6 (Restayn, page 322) and the Pz.III of #528 (Restayn, page 271). In comparison some of the Das Reich tanks have turret numbers outlined in white…….
But it is evident that the turret sides around where the turret number would have been located, if applied, were not left panzergrau, this is confirmed by the above mentioned photo of Buchner, #*61 possible #061 (Restayn, page 242) and Agate’s mistaken Pz.III Ausf J (Agate, page 51). Again, without an actual photo of Wittmann’s tank, or at least one from his company, the actual style and colouring used seems open to speculation.

Agate’s order of battle for the LAH as of Feb 1943 details only the hull numbers for the 4th Heavy Company as beginning with a 4, for each of the three platoons. So where did the hulls #555, #558, #061, #605, #528, the Pz.I, #528 Pz.II belong?

It seems that even the model manufacturers have their own ideas, Dragon 6363 has red numerals outlined in white for its Pz.IV Ausf. G, whereas Hasegawa MT43 has red outlined in white for the turret sides, and black outlined for those on the rear stowage box for its Pz.IV Ausf. G, all applied to an ochre yellow, whitewashed base coat….



Bibliography

Agate, P., (2006 ed), ‘Michael Wittmann and the Waffen SS Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte in WWII, Volume One’ Stackpole Books, ISBN 9780811733342.

Gander, T.J., (2004 ed.), “PzKpfw III Ausf A to N” ‘Tanks in Detail; Panzer III‘, Ian Allen Publishing Ltd. ISBN 0711030154.

Restayn, J., (2000 ed.), ’The Battle Of Kharkov, Winter 1942-1943’ J.J. Fedorowicz Publishing, ISBN 09211991487.

Schneider, W., (2005 ed.), ‘Tigers In Combat II’ Stackpole Books, ISBN 0811732037.

[LAH 1 SS]

brin i hope i can help you LAH was equiped with all three panzer 3 models the j l and m has you have quite exceptionally pointed out . the later versions of the pz 3 would have been placed into combat positions replacing damaged or commandered vehicles. so retrospectively the vehicles that would have been replaced first would have been command vehicles with newer up to date versions. the vehicles leftover would have been filtered down to the crews that needed a new vehicle or replacement vehicle. so on this instance i would hypothetically being going for a pz3 ausf m as being wittmanns vehicle i am still trying to find the evidence you seek and as soon as i know or come up with something i will post it for you.

as for the turret numbers the photos i have seen show what could be white outlines with no centres. i am not completely sure however and was leaning towards a yellow as being possibly used so when i get further confirmation i will again post and let you know sorry mate.

as for the last question in regards to the tank numbers you have given that were attatched to the 4th heavy tank battalion the tank numbers #555, #558 belonged to abteilung stab, the tank number #061 belonged to aufklaerung zug the last tank mubers i cant help with sorry looks like even more research

[Geek44]

I've always admired the pursuit of knowledge and learning. You guys really know your stuff. Well done gents...I'm very impressed.