Traitor?

[DDLDSDB]

Adm. Canaris. Did he sell his own Nation and Europe down the drain?

[Klaus]

You got to be a little more specific. What are you relating to?

[Jim O]

I agree. Are you referring to the sum of his life? His last few months? Years?

If you are asking did loving Germany and caring for its future but betraying Hitler make him a traitor, then it's a hard call. He should perhaps be remembered as a German patriot and a "traitor" to Nazi rule in general and to Hitler specifically. He was a principled man who refused to join the Nazi Party.

Was Rommel a traitor? Depends how you define it.

[temujin77]

Yeah, he was a traitor, but like previously stated, everything is subjective. Washington was a traitor to Britain, Vidkun Quisling was a traitor to the people of Norway, and Luke Skywalker was a traitor to the Galactic Empire. Some of the named aboved may be treated as heroes today, some with hatred, and some simply controversial. Everything is subjective depending on your view.

If you ask me? Yes, Canaris was a traitor to Nazi Germany, but he did it with all the right reasons. He had the ethical responsibility as a German to betray the Nazi regime that was in the wrong.

[DDLDSDB]

Well.....I am not surprised at the responses. Wishy-washy,to say the least. One could well say,playing both sides of the fence...but leaning toward the PC side. If one loves his Country and the people, they do not sell them out because of a political or so called "moral" issue or whatever their reason be.(unless a traitor) It would be like say, I do not lke the current adminisration. I am a leading military big wig. So... as you seem to say, It is OK! Sell your Nation,comrades and countymen down the river.

Quisling a traitor? Not sure on that one. (Washington a traitor? not worth a reply actually.) Luke,well..where ever one's mind is at.

Canaris, from pretty much the beginning of WW2.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by DDLDSDB

If one loves his Country and the people, they do not sell them out because of a political or so called "moral" issue or whatever their reason be.(unless a traitor) It would be like say, I do not lke the current adminisration. I am a leading military big wig. So... as you seem to say, It is OK! Sell your Nation,comrades and countymen down the river.

Quisling a traitor? Not sure on that one. (Washington a traitor? not worth a reply actually.) Luke,well..where ever one's mind is at.

Canaris, from pretty much the beginning of WW2.

Washington was an Englishman fighting against the crown and fellow Englishmen for the first 15 months of the war. Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence and John Hancock signed it in big letters. All were British subjects and traitors ["If one loves his Country and the people, they do not sell them out because of a political or so called "moral" issue or whatever their reason be.(unless a traitor)"] by that same definition. What was Washington's excuse?

Things are not so black and white as you make them seem. For one thing I don't agree that he "sold out" his "Country and the people". He may have sold out Hitler and the Nazis but whether "Hitler and the Nazis" equates to "Country and the people" is a question. Unless you define Hitler and the Nazis and the German nation and people as all one and the same it does not. If you do define them as one and the same, then you'd better start backtracking on your other comments such as those on the bombing of Dresden. Since that was aimed at Hitler himself and the Nazi party (by virtue of the fact that they were the "Country and the people"), not the innocent people it harmed. By your reasoning the rapes of an estimated 2 million German females by the Red Army was "action against Hitler and the Nazis" and so was justified as a legitimate act of war since they were all one and the same. That is a slippery slope to be on but it is what happens when one views government and people as one and the same. I have a different view on that subject, as well quoted by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Traitor? Or Patriot? Indeed.

[Ingsoc]

Originally Posted by DDLDSDB

Well.....I am not surprised at the responses. Wishy-washy,to say the least. One could well say,playing both sides of the fence...but leaning toward the PC side. If one loves his Country and the people, they do not sell them out because of a political or so called "moral" issue or whatever their reason be.(unless a traitor) It would be like say, I do not lke the current adminisration. I am a leading military big wig. So... as you seem to say, It is OK! Sell your Nation,comrades and countymen down the river.

Quisling a traitor? Not sure on that one. (Washington a traitor? not worth a reply actually.) Luke,well..where ever one's mind is at.

Canaris, from pretty much the beginning of WW2.

Of course by your logic Hitler was a traitor too since when he become Reichskanzler he took an oath to the German constitusion, and immediatly began to destroy the German state.

And Quisling was defintly a traitor as you said "If one loves his Country and the people, they do not sell them out because of a political or so called "moral" issue or whatever their reason be" don't you think that Quisling working for the German occupetion is exacly what you describe.

[Jim O]

Originally Posted by Ingsoc

Of course by your logic Hitler was a traitor too since when he become Reichskanzler he took an oath to the German constitusion, and immediatly began to destroy the German state.

Hitler was a convicted traitor in 1923.

[Hobilar]

With all respects to Jim, does anone else feel that quoting the Declaration of Independance just to WIN an argument to be particularly bad form. Surely it is a bit like quoting Goebbels wartime propaganda broadcasts and asserting them to be facts.

[Klaus]

If the declaration represents the way he feels about the subject, why not? If someone disagrees with the decleration of independence he is free to counter argument. No big deal.